What's wrong with our school systems?

krypticide · 03-09-2009, 05:46 PM

Totally agree with cpopham. We've been lucky in terms of technology: there are enough people that can drive things forward for us.

This is why I think it's insane that the US makes it so difficult for bright and hard working foreigners to get visas or stay in the US. Those are the very people we should be giving priority to.

ve2vfd · 03-09-2009, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by cpopham

mediocrity has become the acceptable goal in Western Society

I'm afraid that just about sums it up...

Anyone remember the old Bart Simpson "Underachiever and proud of it" t-shirts? It used to be a funny joke... it's now reality.

pat

krypticide · 03-10-2009, 02:57 PM

There is some hope...Obama seems to be pushing for higher education standards. Whether or not it's actually implemented well, I'm glad to see that someone's trying to make it happen.

Of course, the teachers' union hates it...

Damn Brit · 03-10-2009, 03:58 PM

I don't have any direct experience in the U.S. but when I was in England, there were a lot of bad teachers hiding behind the unions.

krypticide · 03-10-2009, 06:36 PM

I'm of the opinion that unions have no place in any developed society today. They were useful when the Industrial Revolution came about and the government had not yet established stringent safety standards, but now they're about collective bargaining power to mostly benefit the union executives and shield lazy members.

Just look at what the UAW and CAW are doing to the big three automakers. Foreign transplants (foreign car companies who manufacture cars in the US) don't use unionized workers, and aren't in danger of going bankrupt.

graphicgr8s · 03-10-2009, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by cpopham

mediocrity has become the acceptable goal in Western Society, .

It's not mediocrity, it's teaching to the "lowest common denominator" Something that started back in the 90's.
As for spelling, my spelling use to be A-1 back when I set type on a Ludlow (old fashion lead slug technology for printing) it was rare that the proofreaders found a mistake in my work. And when they did it was because someone else was working in my type cases and missed a letter which would throw it off. you had to pick each letter and actually think about it. And you had to be FAST also. I was fortunate to work with one of the top 5 typesetters in the US back in the 70's and he was fast and accurate. I use to try racing him and every once in a while I would catch him. But on Linotype I could whoop him.

Truth of the matter is I sucked in math. Never learned my multiplication tables but I found workarounds. If i didn't know 7 x 7 I did know that 3 x 7 =21 x2 =42 +7 =49. Took me longer but I got the right answer all the time. Did Regeants algebra and my other college courses that way. They don't teach to find workarounds anymore.

I think part of the problem with education today stems from the computer. It takes away the "thinking".

And my spelling and grammar is still okay. So long as I am not on a computer. My wife sometimes gets mad at me because I find the mistakes on billboards then call the company.

er1kksen · 03-10-2009, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by cpopham

Personally I believe it's much, much more widespread than just our school systems.

Basically, from my point of view, mediocrity has become the acceptable goal in Western Society, and few, if anyone is held to any standard any more. Not in schools, not in business, not even in our personal lives. We see this time and time again in the failings of various industries and organisations, and even in things like soaring divorce rates. It's just become acceptable, even expected to not really try.

We can't have grade curves and high achievers in our schools because we might make the less academic students have low self esteem...

We can't have people striving for the highest standard in business and industry because we have cost margins to protect, and 'good enough' pays the bills...

We can't even keep our families together, because it's okay for people to drift apart.

Nothing is anybody's fault anymore.

And it's bullshit.

But that's just the somewhat idealistic 2 cents of a 24 year old who still naively thinks the world can be a better place than it is.

I think this is true to a degree, but I also think it may be in part due to newer generations finding that excelling in the areas which one was culturally compelled to excell in in the past is no longer fulfilling. Sure, maybe being at the top of the class, climbing the corporate ladder, being at the head of a company or at least being excellent in your business and living the American Dream seemed like a worthy goal to my grandfather (who persued such things successfully) but I would find a life like that empty. I could see myself lying on my deathbead feeling regret that I had lived my entire life persuing someone else's dream, after living an "excellent" life like that.

I don't think the problem is one of drifting away from the old standards: those are things that change, inevitably. The standardsfor living an "excellent" life in the 1500s were different from what you describe as well. The problem is that we seem to beinanempty period, where we know what we're given isn't fulfilling, but we don't know what is. So instead, as you said, we simply accept mediocrity. Kids today expect things to be just given to them. They're not given a reason to do things better (not ones that they can recognize, anyways), so they simply don't.

Of course, that's not true of EVERYONE around today. I consider myself to be someone who seeks rather than waiting to recieve, and I've found other ways to excel in life that I find fulfilling. Again, I'm not the only one out here who feels this way. I suspect that you're like that too, and maybe you've found the older ideals fulfilling. I've found newer ones, but I feel that both can be just as valid. But regardless of what ideals are held, I do agree with you that people need to take responsibility for their own lives, both successes and failings.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know why any time I go back to insert an extra word or letter it types over what I have already written? I've had to forgo spaces between some of the words above in order to insert something or other that my fingers skipped over.

graphicgr8s · 03-10-2009, 07:24 PM

Hit the insert key first.

Damn Brit · 03-10-2009, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

As for spelling, my spelling use to be A-1 back when I set type on a Ludlow (old fashion lead slug technology for printing) it was rare that the proofreaders found a mistake in my work. And when they did it was because someone else was working in my type cases and missed a letter which would throw it off. you had to pick each letter and actually think about it. And you had to be FAST also. I was fortunate to work with one of the top 5 typesetters in the US back in the 70's and he was fast and accurate. I use to try racing him and every once in a while I would catch him. But on Linotype I could whoop him.

Wasn't that Ye Olde English though?

graphicgr8s · 03-10-2009, 07:39 PM

Twas the Queen's English truth be known.

**rparmar** · 03-10-2009, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by SpecialK

Luckily, as pointed out elsewhere, correct spelling is no longer necessary.

Sorry, I just hired someone else for the job, someone who could spell, because I didn't want to waste my time reading through the mess that followed the sentence I just quoted. Yes, I know you were trying to be cute. But let's not mistake that for making any sort of real point.

Grammar and spelling are about communication, which is more important than ever. If you can't communicate, you lose out to someone who can. Someone else will get their point across. Someone else will make the deal. Someone else will wield the influence. Someone else will get the date.

It is sad that the school system is more about rubber-stamping someone's passage through life than anything else. But it was always the way. School never equaled education; it's just a holding pen for people until they can be trained into society and slotted into the jobs the post-industrial world needs filled.

Read Ivan Illich.

**rparmar** · 03-10-2009, 07:51 PM

Maybe I should have put some smilies in the previous post, so you'd know when I was being sarcastic.

(A communication conundrum.)

graphicgr8s · 03-10-2009, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

Maybe I should have put some smilies in the previous post, so you'd know when I was being sarcastic.

(A communication conundrum.)

But the last 2/3rds of the post are true.

I hate "my bad" instead of I'm sorry, my misteak, mistake. I missedsteak? I like it not quite moving. Okay? And on the grill please

Damn Brit · 03-10-2009, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Twas the Queen's English truth be known.

Americans had Kings English and it evolved from there. England has the Queens English, if Charles, William or Harry become King, England will yet again have Kings English but not the same as American Kings English.

You think that's confusing, I once said to my Latin tutor when he caught me dozing;
"I couldn't speak to a dead Roman even if I knew the bloody lingo!"

graphicgr8s · 03-10-2009, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

Americans had Kings English and it evolved from there. England has the Queens English, if Charles, William or Harry become King, England will yet again have Kings English but not the same as American Kings English.

You think that's confusing, I once said to my Latin tutor when he caught me dozing;
"I couldn't speak to a dead Roman even if I knew the bloody lingo!"

:ugh:

03-10-2009, 07:04 PM	#51
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by cpopham mediocrity has become the acceptable goal in Western Society, . It's not mediocrity, it's teaching to the "lowest common denominator" Something that started back in the 90's. As for spelling, my spelling use to be A-1 back when I set type on a Ludlow (old fashion lead slug technology for printing) it was rare that the proofreaders found a mistake in my work. And when they did it was because someone else was working in my type cases and missed a letter which would throw it off. you had to pick each letter and actually think about it. And you had to be FAST also. I was fortunate to work with one of the top 5 typesetters in the US back in the 70's and he was fast and accurate. I use to try racing him and every once in a while I would catch him. But on Linotype I could whoop him. Truth of the matter is I sucked in math. Never learned my multiplication tables but I found workarounds. If i didn't know 7 x 7 I did know that 3 x 7 =21 x2 =42 +7 =49. Took me longer but I got the right answer all the time. Did Regeants algebra and my other college courses that way. They don't teach to find workarounds anymore. I think part of the problem with education today stems from the computer. It takes away the "thinking". And my spelling and grammar is still okay. So long as I am not on a computer. My wife sometimes gets mad at me because I find the mistakes on billboards then call the company. Last edited by graphicgr8s; 03-10-2009 at 07:46 PM.

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03-09-2009, 05:46 PM	#46
krypticide Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,079	Totally agree with cpopham. We've been lucky in terms of technology: there are enough people that can drive things forward for us. This is why I think it's insane that the US makes it so difficult for bright and hard working foreigners to get visas or stay in the US. Those are the very people we should be giving priority to.

03-09-2009, 08:03 PM	#47
ve2vfd Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,433	Originally posted by cpopham mediocrity has become the acceptable goal in Western Society I'm afraid that just about sums it up... Anyone remember the old Bart Simpson "Underachiever and proud of it" t-shirts? It used to be a funny joke... it's now reality. pat

03-10-2009, 02:57 PM	#48
krypticide Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,079	There is some hope...Obama seems to be pushing for higher education standards. Whether or not it's actually implemented well, I'm glad to see that someone's trying to make it happen. Of course, the teachers' union hates it...

03-10-2009, 03:58 PM	#49
Damn Brit Guest	I don't have any direct experience in the U.S. but when I was in England, there were a lot of bad teachers hiding behind the unions.

03-10-2009, 06:36 PM	#50
krypticide Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,079	I'm of the opinion that unions have no place in any developed society today. They were useful when the Industrial Revolution came about and the government had not yet established stringent safety standards, but now they're about collective bargaining power to mostly benefit the union executives and shield lazy members. Just look at what the UAW and CAW are doing to the big three automakers. Foreign transplants (foreign car companies who manufacture cars in the US) don't use unionized workers, and aren't in danger of going bankrupt.

03-10-2009, 07:18 PM	#52
er1kksen Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Forestville, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,801	Originally posted by cpopham Personally I believe it's much, much more widespread than just our school systems. Basically, from my point of view, mediocrity has become the acceptable goal in Western Society, and few, if anyone is held to any standard any more. Not in schools, not in business, not even in our personal lives. We see this time and time again in the failings of various industries and organisations, and even in things like soaring divorce rates. It's just become acceptable, even expected to not really try. We can't have grade curves and high achievers in our schools because we might make the less academic students have low self esteem... We can't have people striving for the highest standard in business and industry because we have cost margins to protect, and 'good enough' pays the bills... We can't even keep our families together, because it's okay for people to drift apart. Nothing is anybody's fault anymore. And it's bullshit. But that's just the somewhat idealistic 2 cents of a 24 year old who still naively thinks the world can be a better place than it is. I think this is true to a degree, but I also think it may be in part due to newer generations finding that excelling in the areas which one was culturally compelled to excell in in the past is no longer fulfilling. Sure, maybe being at the top of the class, climbing the corporate ladder, being at the head of a company or at least being excellent in your business and living the American Dream seemed like a worthy goal to my grandfather (who persued such things successfully) but I would find a life like that empty. I could see myself lying on my deathbead feeling regret that I had lived my entire life persuing someone else's dream, after living an "excellent" life like that. I don't think the problem is one of drifting away from the old standards: those are things that change, inevitably. The standardsfor living an "excellent" life in the 1500s were different from what you describe as well. The problem is that we seem to beinanempty period, where we know what we're given isn't fulfilling, but we don't know what is. So instead, as you said, we simply accept mediocrity. Kids today expect things to be just given to them. They're not given a reason to do things better (not ones that they can recognize, anyways), so they simply don't. Of course, that's not true of EVERYONE around today. I consider myself to be someone who seeks rather than waiting to recieve, and I've found other ways to excel in life that I find fulfilling. Again, I'm not the only one out here who feels this way. I suspect that you're like that too, and maybe you've found the older ideals fulfilling. I've found newer ones, but I feel that both can be just as valid. But regardless of what ideals are held, I do agree with you that people need to take responsibility for their own lives, both successes and failings. On an unrelated note, does anyone know why any time I go back to insert an extra word or letter it types over what I have already written? I've had to forgo spaces between some of the words above in order to insert something or other that my fingers skipped over.

03-10-2009, 07:24 PM	#53
graphicgr8s Guest	Hit the insert key first.

03-10-2009, 07:37 PM	#54
Damn Brit Guest	Originally posted by graphicgr8s As for spelling, my spelling use to be A-1 back when I set type on a Ludlow (old fashion lead slug technology for printing) it was rare that the proofreaders found a mistake in my work. And when they did it was because someone else was working in my type cases and missed a letter which would throw it off. you had to pick each letter and actually think about it. And you had to be FAST also. I was fortunate to work with one of the top 5 typesetters in the US back in the 70's and he was fast and accurate. I use to try racing him and every once in a while I would catch him. But on Linotype I could whoop him. Wasn't that Ye Olde English though?

03-10-2009, 07:39 PM	#55
graphicgr8s Guest	Twas the Queen's English truth be known.

03-10-2009, 07:49 PM	#56
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Originally posted by SpecialK Luckily, as pointed out elsewhere, correct spelling is no longer necessary. Sorry, I just hired someone else for the job, someone who could spell, because I didn't want to waste my time reading through the mess that followed the sentence I just quoted. Yes, I know you were trying to be cute. But let's not mistake that for making any sort of real point. Grammar and spelling are about communication, which is more important than ever. If you can't communicate, you lose out to someone who can. Someone else will get their point across. Someone else will make the deal. Someone else will wield the influence. Someone else will get the date. It is sad that the school system is more about rubber-stamping someone's passage through life than anything else. But it was always the way. School never equaled education; it's just a holding pen for people until they can be trained into society and slotted into the jobs the post-industrial world needs filled. Read Ivan Illich.

03-10-2009, 07:51 PM	#57
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Maybe I should have put some smilies in the previous post, so you'd know when I was being sarcastic. (A communication conundrum.)

03-10-2009, 07:54 PM	#58
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by rparmar Maybe I should have put some smilies in the previous post, so you'd know when I was being sarcastic. (A communication conundrum.) But the last 2/3rds of the post are true. I hate "my bad" instead of I'm sorry, my misteak, mistake. I missedsteak? I like it not quite moving. Okay? And on the grill please

03-10-2009, 08:12 PM	#59
Damn Brit Guest	Originally posted by graphicgr8s Twas the Queen's English truth be known. Americans had Kings English and it evolved from there. England has the Queens English, if Charles, William or Harry become King, England will yet again have Kings English but not the same as American Kings English. You think that's confusing, I once said to my Latin tutor when he caught me dozing; "I couldn't speak to a dead Roman even if I knew the bloody lingo!"

03-10-2009, 08:15 PM	#60
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by Damn Brit Americans had Kings English and it evolved from there. England has the Queens English, if Charles, William or Harry become King, England will yet again have Kings English but not the same as American Kings English. You think that's confusing, I once said to my Latin tutor when he caught me dozing; "I couldn't speak to a dead Roman even if I knew the bloody lingo!" :ugh: