What's wrong with our school systems?

Blue · 03-10-2009, 10:10 PM

There is a reason English spelling is so confusing. The Brits were relying too much on French early on. Then there has been various spelling reform movements in the UK and the US.

History

Spelling Reform

The biggest development following the global expansion of English to North America, Australia etc is the spelling differences between British and American English, initially instigated by the publication of Noah Webster's American Dictionary in 1828.

**rparmar** · 03-11-2009, 05:24 AM

English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages.

Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult.

ve2vfd · 03-11-2009, 05:57 AM

I find English a LOT easier to cope with than written French (and I am a native french speaker!)

French is chock full of homophones, more verb tenses and exceptions than you can shake a stick at, and to really complicate things every word has a gender which verb and adjective must conjugate to...

And then there are the accents on some vowels (2 of which - è and ê - produce the same sound so you just have to know which to use)

Pat

RoxnDox · 03-11-2009, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

Americans had Kings English and it evolved from there. England has the Queens English, if Charles, William or Harry become King, England will yet again have Kings English but not the same as American Kings English.

You think that's confusing, I once said to my Latin tutor when he caught me dozing;
"I couldn't speak to a dead Roman even if I knew the bloody lingo!"

Sure ya could, he just wouldn't understand you! <GRIN>

Jim

bretti_kivi · 03-11-2009, 11:03 AM

quick book tip: "Eats, Shoots, and leaves", Lynne King.

I've had to re-learn a lot of grammar (but in the mean time I've learned one language comprehensively and started another two) due to work.
Work on the apostrophe, not using the same adjective (description) twice in the same sentence and excercise Word's Thesaurus (Shift-F7).
Commas are a minefield. Brits do it differently, I'm a Brit but I'm supposed to be writing american English. Meh.

Finnish spelling is obvious, if it's spelt one way then its pronunciation is linked, unlike English, where there's often no link whatsoever.

Bret

Blue · 03-11-2009, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages.

Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult.

English is phonetic? Some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. Plus, there are words that have different definitions in British English compared to American English. One example is potato chips, and another is lift.

séamuis · 03-11-2009, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages.

Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult.

I have tried to learn Irish Gaelic on about 10 different occasions.... jeez that's a difficult language.

graphicgr8s · 03-11-2009, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by rparmar

English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages.

Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult.

What about Russian? Or Creole?

poco · 03-11-2009, 10:02 PM

People seem to be confused about what the American dream is. It isn't about owning this or that. The American Dream is that your children will live better than you do. If you think about what that implies, you will see that most of all the problems that started this thread, go away. Parents involved in actively seeing their children doing better. They themselves, doing everything in their power to do better so that it translates into a better starting point for their offspring. The world moving forward, not back into darkness.

SpecialK · 03-11-2009, 10:14 PM

Quote:

English is at least phonetic...

You could phonetically spell "fish" as "ghoti" (enou"gh", w"o"men, lo"ti"on).

A recent article (possibly a joke?) said Great Britain wants to drop apostrophes (the ' ) on signs as it is "too confusing". So, properly, "King's English" (possessive or ownership) will become "Kings English" (plural).

RoxnDox · 03-12-2009, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Blue

English is phonetic? Some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. Plus, there are words that have different definitions in British English compared to American English. One example is potato chips, and another is lift.

That's because English keeps stealing stuff from any other language it runs across... Hard to be consistent when you've taken bits and pieces of dozens of different languages and glomped them all together. "oooh, I like that phrase! Think I'll steal it!!!"

Jim

To quote James Nicoll from a Usenet post: "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

Blue · 03-12-2009, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by RoxnDox

That's because English keeps stealing stuff from any other language it runs across... Hard to be consistent when you've taken bits and pieces of dozens of different languages and glomped them all together. "oooh, I like that phrase! Think I'll steal it!!!"

Jim

To quote James Nicoll from a Usenet post: "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

And lets not forget that American English and British English hang out in different Alley ways. Of course there are different versions of Spanish out there as well.

bretti_kivi · 03-12-2009, 10:13 AM

... and the amount of those who understand the differences in writing for Asia, the UK or the US is minimal.

I don't like writing US-English, it turns mid-atlantic on me. Understanding the Asian documentation I get is an art in and of itself; thankfully, I've spent some time over there and can rephrase it relatively simply.
Wasn't there a case recently where a reporter actually asked "well, if English is so difficult, how come so many people speak it?"

Bret

ve2vfd · 03-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

What about Russian? Or Creole?

By the way just FIY Creole is an offshoot of French. (I use the word offshoot and not dialect as like Cajun it's so different that a french speaker cannot understand Creole (or Cajun for that matter).

Now I feel like one of those NBC "The more you know" PSA's

Pat

Blue · 03-12-2009, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by ve2vfd

By the way just FIY Creole is an offshoot of French. (I use the word offshoot and not dialect as like Cajun it's so different that a french speaker cannot understand Creole (or Cajun for that matter).

Now I feel like one of those NBC "The more you know" PSA's

Pat

Those are "spoken" dialects and not actually written.

03-11-2009, 10:02 PM	#69
poco Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 153	The American Dream People seem to be confused about what the American dream is. It isn't about owning this or that. The American Dream is that your children will live better than you do. If you think about what that implies, you will see that most of all the problems that started this thread, go away. Parents involved in actively seeing their children doing better. They themselves, doing everything in their power to do better so that it translates into a better starting point for their offspring. The world moving forward, not back into darkness.

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03-10-2009, 10:10 PM	#61
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	There is a reason English spelling is so confusing. The Brits were relying too much on French early on. Then there has been various spelling reform movements in the UK and the US. History Spelling Reform The biggest development following the global expansion of English to North America, Australia etc is the spelling differences between British and American English, initially instigated by the publication of Noah Webster's American Dictionary in 1828.

03-11-2009, 05:24 AM	#62
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages. Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult.

03-11-2009, 05:57 AM	#63
ve2vfd Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,433	I find English a LOT easier to cope with than written French (and I am a native french speaker!) French is chock full of homophones, more verb tenses and exceptions than you can shake a stick at, and to really complicate things every word has a gender which verb and adjective must conjugate to... And then there are the accents on some vowels (2 of which - è and ê - produce the same sound so you just have to know which to use) Pat

03-11-2009, 06:37 AM	#64
RoxnDox Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gig Harbor, Washington, USA, Terra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,494	Originally posted by Damn Brit Americans had Kings English and it evolved from there. England has the Queens English, if Charles, William or Harry become King, England will yet again have Kings English but not the same as American Kings English. You think that's confusing, I once said to my Latin tutor when he caught me dozing; "I couldn't speak to a dead Roman even if I knew the bloody lingo!" Sure ya could, he just wouldn't understand you! <GRIN> Jim

03-11-2009, 11:03 AM	#65
bretti_kivi Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 46	quick book tip: "Eats, Shoots, and leaves", Lynne King. I've had to re-learn a lot of grammar (but in the mean time I've learned one language comprehensively and started another two) due to work. Work on the apostrophe, not using the same adjective (description) twice in the same sentence and excercise Word's Thesaurus (Shift-F7). Commas are a minefield. Brits do it differently, I'm a Brit but I'm supposed to be writing american English. Meh. Finnish spelling is obvious, if it's spelt one way then its pronunciation is linked, unlike English, where there's often no link whatsoever. Bret

03-11-2009, 03:13 PM	#66
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by rparmar English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages. Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult. English is phonetic? Some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. Plus, there are words that have different definitions in British English compared to American English. One example is potato chips, and another is lift.

03-11-2009, 03:31 PM	#67
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by rparmar English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages. Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult. I have tried to learn Irish Gaelic on about 10 different occasions.... jeez that's a difficult language.

03-11-2009, 06:45 PM	#68
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by rparmar English is at least phonetic, though the sources come from so many roots, including Latin and Greek, that it is difficult to know "write from rong". But it is far from the most difficult, since it still has its basis in romance languages. Try Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Hungarian, Irish or Finnish if you want something truly difficult. What about Russian? Or Creole?

03-11-2009, 10:14 PM	#70
SpecialK Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: So California Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,481	Quote: English is at least phonetic... You could phonetically spell "fish" as "ghoti" (enou"gh", w"o"men, lo"ti"on). A recent article (possibly a joke?) said Great Britain wants to drop apostrophes (the ' ) on signs as it is "too confusing". So, properly, "King's English" (possessive or ownership) will become "Kings English" (plural).

03-12-2009, 09:17 AM	#71
RoxnDox Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gig Harbor, Washington, USA, Terra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,494	Originally posted by Blue English is phonetic? Some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. Plus, there are words that have different definitions in British English compared to American English. One example is potato chips, and another is lift. That's because English keeps stealing stuff from any other language it runs across... Hard to be consistent when you've taken bits and pieces of dozens of different languages and glomped them all together. "oooh, I like that phrase! Think I'll steal it!!!" Jim To quote James Nicoll from a Usenet post: "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

03-12-2009, 09:31 AM	#72
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by RoxnDox That's because English keeps stealing stuff from any other language it runs across... Hard to be consistent when you've taken bits and pieces of dozens of different languages and glomped them all together. "oooh, I like that phrase! Think I'll steal it!!!" Jim To quote James Nicoll from a Usenet post: "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." And lets not forget that American English and British English hang out in different Alley ways. Of course there are different versions of Spanish out there as well.

03-12-2009, 10:13 AM	#73
bretti_kivi Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 46	... and the amount of those who understand the differences in writing for Asia, the UK or the US is minimal. I don't like writing US-English, it turns mid-atlantic on me. Understanding the Asian documentation I get is an art in and of itself; thankfully, I've spent some time over there and can rephrase it relatively simply. Wasn't there a case recently where a reporter actually asked "well, if English is so difficult, how come so many people speak it?" Bret

03-12-2009, 10:36 AM	#74
ve2vfd Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Montreal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,433	Originally posted by graphicgr8s What about Russian? Or Creole? By the way just FIY Creole is an offshoot of French. (I use the word offshoot and not dialect as like Cajun it's so different that a french speaker cannot understand Creole (or Cajun for that matter). Now I feel like one of those NBC "The more you know" PSA's Pat

03-12-2009, 12:00 PM	#75
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by ve2vfd By the way just FIY Creole is an offshoot of French. (I use the word offshoot and not dialect as like Cajun it's so different that a french speaker cannot understand Creole (or Cajun for that matter). Now I feel like one of those NBC "The more you know" PSA's Pat Those are "spoken" dialects and not actually written.