[Blue]

Well, now I'll head directly to the big guns& ammo store, to prove my courage ...
Bully is the way.
I'm not with these kinda' actions, but ALL PEOPLE DESERVE FREEDOM.
And respecting other people is freedom.

The Icelanders were not chickens. I fail to see where giving or receiving respect is freedom. I certainly don't understand what you mean by

big guns& ammo store.

The right people didn't win at Tiananmen Square in 1989, but I have the utmost respect for the people that pressed it that day. It is hard to beat tanks with bare hands. Our respect didn't give them freedom.

[slomojoe]

The difference here was that GOP was holding its Convention and radicals there with the express purpose of preventing them from meeting and were attempting to disrupt the meetings. I don't particularly like the GOP nor do I like political parties in general because they more often than not end up like an oligarchy.

LOL. So demonstrations are fine, except when they bother your side? Then police abuse is all well and good, uh? You can't be serious.

For cryin' out loud, they pepper-sprayed Donna Brazile in Minny last year! (And she was trying to get to the convention.) They also arrested dozens of journalists from violent radical outfits like AP and the Minnesota Independent. They conducted pre-emptive raids in riot gear against the protest organizers, and ended up charging them with... fire-code violations. In the end, the police arrested hundreds and hundreds of people at the protests, and were later forced to dismiss charges against over 90% of them.

[Blue]

LOL. So demonstrations are fine, except when they bother your side? Then police abuse is all well and good, uh? You can't be serious.

For cryin' out loud, they pepper-sprayed Donna Brazile in Minny last year! (And she was trying to get to the convention.) They also arrested dozens of journalists from violent radical outfits like AP and the Minnesota Independent. They conducted pre-emptive raids in riot gear against the protest organizers, and ended up charging them with... fire-code violations. In the end, the police arrested hundreds and hundreds of people at the protests, and were later forced to dismiss charges against over 90% of them.

Why are you assuming its my side? Nice try though. I wouldn't even pick a Party but Florida forces you to or yo can't participate in a Primary. However, I'm going to switch. However, the situation in Iceland and photographs from it are what this thread is about.

Those Denver Police were far more civilized when the knocked down teenage girls and arrested a a Pastor that had a permit to do sidewalk chalk art in Denver.

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl8288...%20in%20Denver

Where things get out of hand at either Convention is when Demonstrators intend to physically disrupt the speech of others and force there way in. The AP, UPI etc all have journalists with passes to these things. They don't have to break in.

[Gooshin]

LOL. So demonstrations are fine, except when they bother your side? Then police abuse is all well and good, uh? You can't be serious.

For cryin' out loud, they pepper-sprayed Donna Brazile in Minny last year! (And she was trying to get to the convention.) They also arrested dozens of journalists from violent radical outfits like AP and the Minnesota Independent. They conducted pre-emptive raids in riot gear against the protest organizers, and ended up charging them with... fire-code violations. In the end, the police arrested hundreds and hundreds of people at the protests, and were later forced to dismiss charges against over 90% of them.

are you a cop?

NO

stop talking like you know their side.

i have never been in the eye of a riot, and hope i never do, unless i have something seriously worth fighting for.


hell, i get confused and make mistakes in a 5on5 ball hockey game and pass to the opposite team, imagine the confusion of a clash of hundreds of people.

Protestors have nothing to lose

Cops have families to go home to after their DAY JOB, fear and emotions lead to decisions which result in a swift action which a 3rd party viewer, like you, may find "outrageous". *roll eyes*

the goal of any riot control group when shit hits the fan is to suppress and control as quickly as efficiently as possible. 100 innocent people get whacked on the head with a batton so that 1000 people dont destroy multiple city blocks, i think thats fair.

plus you wont get whacked if you're not in the melee, so, here is a tip, dont go in the melee.

and if you have something worth fighting for, then dont bitch and moan when you get cuffed and dragged, that just means you lost the battle, suck it up.

[slomojoe]

are you a cop?

NO

stop talking like you know their side.

i have never been in the eye of a riot, and hope i never do, unless i have something seriously worth fighting for.


hell, i get confused and make mistakes in a 5on5 ball hockey game and pass to the opposite team, imagine the confusion of a clash of hundreds of people.

Protestors have nothing to lose

Cops have families to go home to after their DAY JOB, fear and emotions lead to decisions which result in a swift action which a 3rd party viewer, like you, may find "outrageous". *roll eyes*

the goal of any riot control group when shit hits the fan is to suppress and control as quickly as efficiently as possible. 100 innocent people get whacked on the head with a batton so that 1000 people dont destroy multiple city blocks, i think thats fair.

plus you wont get whacked if you're not in the melee, so, here is a tip, dont go in the melee.

and if you have something worth fighting for, then dont bitch and moan when you get cuffed and dragged, that just means you lost the battle, suck it up.

That kind of puts a damper on the whole freedom of assembly concept, doesn't it, if all the police has to do to put the blame on protesters is to beat them up? And of course, the "suck it up" attitude is sheer nonsense: citizens have a right to protest, and demonstrations are not "battles" that can or should be settled with teargas and billy clubs.

But basically, most of the facts I have mentioned regarding police violence against demonstrators are really not even in question, as they have been witnessed by mainstream media reporters of every stripe, including many sources not usually in the business of sympathizing with "anarchist rioters" (cable news channels, national newspapers, AP, etc). In several cases, these abuses have been recognized by the courts. The Denver riots have led to the resignation of the police chief there, and to a court settlement against the city and in favor of several dozens protesters who had been beaten and arrested. In Genoa, 15 policemen were convicted of brutality just last year (appeals pending).

Lawsuits alleging police abuse and constitutional violations with regard to the NYC, Denver and Minneapolis protests have been filed and are still ongoing, as far as I know.

[Gooshin]

its very easy to convict a police officer of professional misconduct after the fact, when everyone is in a quiet court wearing suits.


Ever been a victim or instigator of road rage? I have. Seems like a stupid thing an hour later when you've cooled down but something gave in during that moment.



Of course, not all protests are created equal. There are many peaceful protests. There are also many protests where those protesting want something, and dont get it, and when they dont get it, and are asked to leave, they fight back.

Well now, when someone tells you to go away and you stay, physical confrontation is the only solution, until one side gives, this is a very simple formula!

The police win, simply due the fact that they are armed, trained, and organized, although there ahve been plenty of Police casualties over the years, i'm sure.



Cops dont beat people up for no reason, there is always a reason, sometimes, in retrospect, the use of force may have been too much, but thats usually determined by a group of people who were not there and did not see.


Like i said before, cops dont line up in ranks wearing riot gear for fun, they do so when an emergency call is issued, and i highly doubt any one of them wants to be there.

There is never an "innocent protester", a protester is one who does not agree with what the current regime is, he is the enemy. Until either those in power listen, and the protester no longer protests, or they tell them to bugger off and employ force.

[Wheatfield]

are you a cop?

NO

stop talking like you know their side.

i have never been in the eye of a riot, and hope i never do, unless i have something seriously worth fighting for.


hell, i get confused and make mistakes in a 5on5 ball hockey game and pass to the opposite team, imagine the confusion of a clash of hundreds of people.

Protestors have nothing to lose

Cops have families to go home to after their DAY JOB, fear and emotions lead to decisions which result in a swift action which a 3rd party viewer, like you, may find "outrageous". *roll eyes*

the goal of any riot control group when shit hits the fan is to suppress and control as quickly as efficiently as possible. 100 innocent people get whacked on the head with a batton so that 1000 people dont destroy multiple city blocks, i think thats fair.

plus you wont get whacked if you're not in the melee, so, here is a tip, dont go in the melee.

and if you have something worth fighting for, then dont bitch and moan when you get cuffed and dragged, that just means you lost the battle, suck it up.

It is curious that the police in video #1 chose to pepper spray the photographers at the back of the crowd rather than the people who were up front and could at least be looked upon as presenting a physical danger to the police.
Perhaps it's one of those accidental things, but if the cop's aim is that bad, he shouldn't be issued a sidearm. It looked to me like a deliberate attempt to ensure that the people with the cameras would be unable to continue to take photographs.
Now, why would the police not want photographic evidence taken by third parties if they intended to abide by the law themselves?

[Gooshin]

my own reationalization, if you pepper spray the people in the middle, its easier to push the people at the front back, because those in the middle will start to retreat.

rationalization based on your words, with all the things the media does with video and photo footage, i would not blame the police for trying to prevent as much of this media from getting out as possible.

but really, only the cop who aimed the canister can really tell you what went through his head.

[Wheatfield]

There is never an "innocent protester", a protester is one who does not agree with what the current regime is, he is the enemy. Until either those in power listen, and the protester no longer protests, or they tell them to bugger off and employ force.

If a ruling body is treating any of it's citizens as "the enemy", does it really have the moral authority to rule at all?

Fer God's sake, we are in Afghanistan because the Taliban treats the citizens as "the enemy". We deposed Saddam Hussain, ostensibly because he treated the Kurdish citizens of Northern Iraq as "the Enemy" and used chemical warfare against them, although since they had sided with the coalition during Gulf War rev 1.0, and were, technically, traitors of the state.
But still, gassing innocents to get at the people who are acting against the best interests of the regime is more than a little over the top.

[ftpaddict]

On a ridiculously unrelated note, i'm still glad I have my gas mask. May just come in handy next time I'm in the neighbourhood to do some street photography.

[Wheatfield]

rationalization based on your words, with all the things the media does with video and photo footage, i would not blame the police for trying to prevent as much of this media from getting out as possible.

And this is how police states get started. Once the police start acting with impunity as an arm of a government that treats it's citizens as "the enemy", and with no accountability to the people, you no longer live in a free country.

[Gooshin]

If a ruling body is treating any of it's citizens as "the enemy", does it really have the moral authority to rule at all?

Fer God's sake, we are in Afghanistan because the Taliban treats the citizens as "the enemy". We deposed Saddam Hussain, ostensibly because he treated the Kurdish citizens of Northern Iraq as "the Enemy" and used chemical warfare against them, although since they had sided with the coalition during Gulf War rev 1.0, and were, technically, traitors of the state.
But still, gassing innocents to get at the people who are acting against the best interests of the regime is more than a little over the top.

ofcourse its over the top, but thats how the system works.

i just dont agree with the cop bashing when they just follow orders.

like i read in the newspaper about a week ago some 71 year old dude is being convicted for his crimes as a Nazi prison guard/officer. Like, seriously, and you should have read the public comments, ohh man.

Go after the government!

also you're in afghanistan because of the oil, and you want to put your foot down there before the russians do. but thats a different topic...

[Gooshin]

And this is how police states get started. Once the police start acting with impunity as an arm of a government that treats it's citizens as "the enemy", and with no accountability to the people, you no longer live in a free country.

you make it sound like those in power are robots.

there are two ways to get your point across

work hard, enter the system, get support, make laws, change the world

or you can just throw a rock at the parliament building



the really sad thing is (in my opinion), is simply the fact that those people that should be in politics reaaally dont want to be there.

are you in politics?

is Blue in politics?

am in politcs? hell no, and i never will be, atleast, not in any foreseeable future.

I also dont feel like fighting storm troopers, because the current government where i live doesn't bother me, i wonder why?

[flyer]

There is one thing worth mentioning: whenever there is a protest or manifestation somewhere, there are always troublemaker mixing in to disrupt thing so they can call "foul play" on the police side, or pull the attention one way while something worst is going on further down. As an example, last week-end, there was a manifestation in Montréal against police brutality. Before the manifestation had even started, the police had already arrested some people having rocks in their back sack. Those same people were claiming that you needed to stir sh** with the police to demonstrate their point. Strange logic when you try to beat up cops to show they are violent. Somebody try to beat me up, I think I might be violent, then. If you could take all the professional trouble makers out of protest, things would go a lot better. And don't tell me there are no professional troublemakers. I personally "know" one, and he is proud of it.

[slomojoe]

i just dont agree with the cop bashing when they just follow orders.

That hasn't been an accepted excuse since at least the Nuremberg Trial. As an officer or a soldier, you have a duty not to follow illegal orders. If you follow them, you can be prosecuted.

like i read in the newspaper about a week ago some 71 year old dude is being convicted for his crimes as a Nazi prison guard/officer. Like, seriously, and you should have read the public comments, ohh man.

Go after the government!

Psst... I think they did. It was called World War II.