Marketplace discrimination.

xjjohnno · 03-31-2009, 03:10 AM

Just going to have a whinge about being discriminated against because I don't live in the US. The number of items that are exclusively on offer there to only CONUS residents makes the rest of us on this planet fell like we have some kind of disease. I know Paypal whack on foreign exchange surcharges, but surely they can be factored into the pricing by listing non US pricing. Naturally the shipping charges are the responsibility of the buyer. nopw most of us also live in countries that have more the favourable trade treaties with the US so in the spirit of Globalisation surely we should not be ignored. Otherwise we are faced with the option of creating regional marketplace enclaves to counter this discrimination.

Peter Zack · 03-31-2009, 03:25 AM

It's something we have to get used to. If someone is shipping domestically, it's a simple process of boxing the item and dropping it off at the PO with a label done at home. But as I understand it, international shipments can involve a wait in line and a bunch of paperwork to to be filled out. Some just don't have the time or want to go through the trouble.

Plus tracking domestically is easier and for some countries impossible or too expensive. Since Paypal never backs up the seller ever, many sellers worry about chargebacks if the buyer won't pay the high cost of tracking and claims they never got thier stuff.

It's not a black and white issue to ship internationally. If you are (not making a judgement but a general comment) a trusted member of the forum with a good track record, then the seller may ship internationally on a case by case basis.

xjjohnno · 03-31-2009, 03:45 AM

Advance paymeny I believe is the usual deal, something I do with Ebay and any other online transactions,usual deal being Paypal transactions, something I'm sure the rest of the non US residents do as well. While I haven't purchased anything from forum members I have gone through occassional negotiations that have in the end gone nowhere.
My comment is about the restrictions on trading beyond continental US, which Paypal protects as readily as it does within the US. I'm sure the Asian, African and European members feel as discriminated against as much as the Australian members. Also considfer the fact that non CONUS members happily sell and ship to the US sub continent and don;t get all that fussed about a little bit of paper work.

**monochrome** · 03-31-2009, 04:21 AM

Part of the issue is a convention here that prices be stated net, including postage, for simplicity. This introduces the problem of how to deal with the upcharges to sell overseas.

I don't believe there is outright discrimination against overseas buyers, nor even a thinking decision to mistrust. Rather I believe many sellers simply do what they have seen others do and write "US-only" in their selling posts. I suspect they've never investigated postage at all since they often write "Continental US" only - when the postage to Alaska and Hawaii is no different than to the lower 48 states.

I've sold overseas both here and eBay. It's more than just a bit of paperwork, especially if one is not familiar with the USPS online postage purchase system, through which one can complete all the paperwork automatically. It can easily take an entire lunch hour to complete a shipment at one's local Post Office. Furthermore, most International (from a US perspective) buyers want me to quote the postage to their location, something they could easily do themselves online. The additional time required to obtain the postage and respond to several PM's becomes prohibitive.

My solution is to require that a Buyer have a Confirmed PayPal shipping address so that I can get Seller Protection, and Insurance against loss and damage. I've gone to the trouble to have both my work and home addresses Confirmed. Every time I respond to a PM from overseas I ask "Is your PayPal shipping address Confirmed? If it isn't I will immediately refund your money and close the transaction," I never hear from the potential buyer again.

Not that I am generally distrustful, but a potential buyer who is willing to pay me the additional PayPal currency exchange fees, the exorbitant additional shipping charge and pay for the Insurance ought to be willing to take the time to have the shipping address Confirmed.

Lastly, many foreign buyers want me to "ship to a friend in the US" so they can avoid customs duties. Clearly that puts me at risk. I just won't do it.

With sympathy for and no disrespect to you personally, my experience selling to overseas buyers introduces a number of barriers that increase the risk of a failed transaction. Less experienced sellers may be unwilling to take those risks.

Peter Zack · 03-31-2009, 05:03 AM

Including everything Monochrome just outlined, Confirmed address or not, without at a bare minimum, insurance* and preferably, tracking. A seller has almost no protection with Paypal. All a buyer has to do is claim the stuff never arrived and without proof of delivery Paypal will ALWAYS refund the buyer. Thus the seller wasn't paid and lost his items. Domestic shipping is easier, safer and given the market size in the USA, usually the stuff sells.

I would be much happier if this wasn't the case but it is. We just have to live with it. As I said before, trusted members will sell to each other and it has nothing to do with discrimination.

* an almost useless program that will find any way possible to never pay out and take months to resolve. Trust me, I've been through this a couple of times with USPS.

gokenin · 03-31-2009, 05:11 AM

Not meaning to start a firefight out of a topic that has already been discussed before but why does the OP single out people in the United States? There are currently ads in the marketplace for EU only sales or UK only sales as well as Australia only sales. I think if you are going to make a point to complain about someone only selling in there home country then complain about everyone doing it. You cant say its ok for some because of currency discrepancies to only sell in their country but heaven forbid if someone in the US doesnt want to ship worldwide. We tend to get labels as xenophobes something that I have never heard someone anywhere else called for not wanting to ship internationally

Peter Zack · 03-31-2009, 06:56 AM

You're completely correct of course and the same things I mentioned are true for those sellers as well. I think the comment directed toward the US is simply because there are far more members from there and as a result more sales set up this way.

Jewelltrail · 03-31-2009, 07:17 AM

I understand what the OP is saying, but, like others have said, selling internationally can get complicated.

For example, yesterday I sold a lens to a guy in Poland. We tried to complete the deal, but ran into complications. We exchange e-mails and PMs--finally I call Paypal, then we are told all is set. Then the buyer pays me. Then I get a message buyer is not confirmed and I am not insured to send parcel to Poland.

So, I call Paypal, because buyer tells e only US residents can be confirmed. Papal then tells me this is not true, to tell buyer to get confirmed. I tell buyer and he gets mad. I refund money and have to reactivate sale at Forum.

This is after I especially went to Post Office to get shipping quote. Now, it is days later and I have not sold the lens. I have a ton of time into the lens and no sale. I may never try to sell internationally again.

Can you understand the problem now?

Gooshin · 03-31-2009, 07:24 AM

what does paypal have to do with postal insurance?

paypal is a tool for you to establish a contract, money in return for goods.

insurance for the package is the responsibility of the courier.

easy cheese.

1. weigh all your goods and know what size packages they will fit in

2. get accustomed with the courier of your choice, and their package rates. Canada Post has an easy to use online calculator, which in my experience has been bang on with what i get charged when i walk into a post office.

3. do a little reading on the countries you deal with to find out if they ahve any special provisions that you should be aware (VAT, specific goods, etc)

its very easy,

Bramela · 03-31-2009, 01:02 PM

Whilst there have been many times I was out of the circle for buying an item , simply because buyers abroad were not included, I feel it is the sellers right to choose where and how he sells an item.

Disappointing many times? Very much so!

But life is full of disappointments after all !

emr · 03-31-2009, 01:12 PM

"Continental U.S. only"

The question comes up every now and then. Somewhat heated discussion. I have to admit that a couple of guys ended on my ignore list due to that thread.

séamuis · 03-31-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

I've sold overseas both here and eBay. It's more than just a bit of paperwork, especially if one is not familiar with the USPS online postage purchase system, through which one can complete all the paperwork automatically. It can easily take an entire lunch hour to complete a shipment at one's local Post Office.

it took me a grand total of about 10 minutes (not counting five or so minutes of travel time to the post office) to package and ship a lens to Latvia from the US. it honestly only takes a minute or two to fill out a customs form. I respect anyone's right to ship where they want to and not include what ever countries they so choose. (haven't we already had this discussion?) but anyone who says shipping overseas is a time consuming burden, unless you live very far away from a post office (in that case you would surely find domestic shipping a time consuming burden as well) is just making excuses in my opinion.

geauxpez · 03-31-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by séamuis

it took me a grand total of about 10 minutes (not counting five or so minutes of travel time to the post office) to package and ship a lens to Latvia from the US. it honestly only takes a minute or two to fill out a customs form. I respect anyone's right to ship where they want to and not include what ever countries they so choose. (haven't we already had this discussion?) but anyone who says shipping overseas is a time consuming burden, unless you live very far away from a post office (in that case you would surely find domestic shipping a time consuming burden as well) is just making excuses in my opinion.

True enough. I get a little nervous about offering overseas shipping (though I do it), primarily because it is such a pain for me to get to the post office when they are open since I work weekdays and they have very limited Saturday hours. I can ship packages uninsured from my office -- I don't ship overseas uninsured. I like to ship stuff out within a day or two of the sale -- not several days or (if something happens Saturday morning and I can't get to the post office) a week and a half later. It makes for a bad buyer experience.

creampuff · 03-31-2009, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Peter Zack

......A seller has almost no protection with Paypal. All a buyer has to do is claim the stuff never arrived and without proof of delivery Paypal will ALWAYS refund the buyer. Thus the seller wasn't paid and lost his items. Domestic shipping is easier, safer and given the market size in the USA, usually the stuff sells.

That is not correct from my personal experience.
At the heart of any Paypal dispute is who can produce proof to back their claim. As a seller, it is simple enough to produce the shipping documentation and better still a snapshot of the package and address label.

I have had buyers try to make a claim saying they didn't receive the goods and in each case, Paypal ruled in my favour because I not only provided the proof of shipping but I had a package receipt confirmation which comes back to me only once the package was signed and delivered.

Perhaps Paypal adopts that position as there are so many deadbeat sellers who take the money and claim to have shipped out the item but in fact never did. I experienced one such case in the past.

Shipping overseas is no more difficult than to ship domestically. How much extra paperwork is there? Just a simple customs declaration.
In my opinion people choose not to because of sheer ignorance, crap reasons or personal choice.

rpriedhorsky · 03-31-2009, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by séamuis

it took me a grand total of about 10 minutes (not counting five or so minutes of travel time to the post office) to package and ship a lens to Latvia from the US. it honestly only takes a minute or two to fill out a customs form. I respect anyone's right to ship where they want to and not include what ever countries they so choose. (haven't we already had this discussion?) but anyone who says shipping overseas is a time consuming burden, unless you live very far away from a post office (in that case you would surely find domestic shipping a time consuming burden as well) is just making excuses in my opinion.

Well, in addition to the actual work load, there's the cognitive load -- figuring out how to do it. If you've never or rarely shipped overseas, that's nonzero effort.

This may be a quirk, but my convenient post office is in the University of Minnesota student union and it's staffed by student work study labor. I don't really trust them to be knowledgeable about overseas shipping.

03-31-2009, 03:10 AM	#1
xjjohnno Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,115	Marketplace discrimination. Just going to have a whinge about being discriminated against because I don't live in the US. The number of items that are exclusively on offer there to only CONUS residents makes the rest of us on this planet fell like we have some kind of disease. I know Paypal whack on foreign exchange surcharges, but surely they can be factored into the pricing by listing non US pricing. Naturally the shipping charges are the responsibility of the buyer. nopw most of us also live in countries that have more the favourable trade treaties with the US so in the spirit of Globalisation surely we should not be ignored. Otherwise we are faced with the option of creating regional marketplace enclaves to counter this discrimination.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
dSLR discrimination?	V10	Photographic Technique	24	10-02-2010 10:12 AM
Pit Dweller Discrimination	seacapt	General Talk	9	04-16-2010 09:12 AM

03-31-2009, 03:25 AM	#2
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	It's something we have to get used to. If someone is shipping domestically, it's a simple process of boxing the item and dropping it off at the PO with a label done at home. But as I understand it, international shipments can involve a wait in line and a bunch of paperwork to to be filled out. Some just don't have the time or want to go through the trouble. Plus tracking domestically is easier and for some countries impossible or too expensive. Since Paypal never backs up the seller ever, many sellers worry about chargebacks if the buyer won't pay the high cost of tracking and claims they never got thier stuff. It's not a black and white issue to ship internationally. If you are (not making a judgement but a general comment) a trusted member of the forum with a good track record, then the seller may ship internationally on a case by case basis.

03-31-2009, 03:45 AM	#3
xjjohnno Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,115 Original Poster	Advance paymeny I believe is the usual deal, something I do with Ebay and any other online transactions,usual deal being Paypal transactions, something I'm sure the rest of the non US residents do as well. While I haven't purchased anything from forum members I have gone through occassional negotiations that have in the end gone nowhere. My comment is about the restrictions on trading beyond continental US, which Paypal protects as readily as it does within the US. I'm sure the Asian, African and European members feel as discriminated against as much as the Australian members. Also considfer the fact that non CONUS members happily sell and ship to the US sub continent and don;t get all that fussed about a little bit of paper work.

03-31-2009, 04:21 AM	#4
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Part of the issue is a convention here that prices be stated net, including postage, for simplicity. This introduces the problem of how to deal with the upcharges to sell overseas. I don't believe there is outright discrimination against overseas buyers, nor even a thinking decision to mistrust. Rather I believe many sellers simply do what they have seen others do and write "US-only" in their selling posts. I suspect they've never investigated postage at all since they often write "Continental US" only - when the postage to Alaska and Hawaii is no different than to the lower 48 states. I've sold overseas both here and eBay. It's more than just a bit of paperwork, especially if one is not familiar with the USPS online postage purchase system, through which one can complete all the paperwork automatically. It can easily take an entire lunch hour to complete a shipment at one's local Post Office. Furthermore, most International (from a US perspective) buyers want me to quote the postage to their location, something they could easily do themselves online. The additional time required to obtain the postage and respond to several PM's becomes prohibitive. My solution is to require that a Buyer have a Confirmed PayPal shipping address so that I can get Seller Protection, and Insurance against loss and damage. I've gone to the trouble to have both my work and home addresses Confirmed. Every time I respond to a PM from overseas I ask "Is your PayPal shipping address Confirmed? If it isn't I will immediately refund your money and close the transaction," I never hear from the potential buyer again. Not that I am generally distrustful, but a potential buyer who is willing to pay me the additional PayPal currency exchange fees, the exorbitant additional shipping charge and pay for the Insurance ought to be willing to take the time to have the shipping address Confirmed. Lastly, many foreign buyers want me to "ship to a friend in the US" so they can avoid customs duties. Clearly that puts me at risk. I just won't do it. With sympathy for and no disrespect to you personally, my experience selling to overseas buyers introduces a number of barriers that increase the risk of a failed transaction. Less experienced sellers may be unwilling to take those risks.

03-31-2009, 05:03 AM	#5
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	Including everything Monochrome just outlined, Confirmed address or not, without at a bare minimum, insurance* and preferably, tracking. A seller has almost no protection with Paypal. All a buyer has to do is claim the stuff never arrived and without proof of delivery Paypal will ALWAYS refund the buyer. Thus the seller wasn't paid and lost his items. Domestic shipping is easier, safer and given the market size in the USA, usually the stuff sells. I would be much happier if this wasn't the case but it is. We just have to live with it. As I said before, trusted members will sell to each other and it has nothing to do with discrimination. * an almost useless program that will find any way possible to never pay out and take months to resolve. Trust me, I've been through this a couple of times with USPS.

03-31-2009, 05:11 AM	#6
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	Not meaning to start a firefight out of a topic that has already been discussed before but why does the OP single out people in the United States? There are currently ads in the marketplace for EU only sales or UK only sales as well as Australia only sales. I think if you are going to make a point to complain about someone only selling in there home country then complain about everyone doing it. You cant say its ok for some because of currency discrepancies to only sell in their country but heaven forbid if someone in the US doesnt want to ship worldwide. We tend to get labels as xenophobes something that I have never heard someone anywhere else called for not wanting to ship internationally

03-31-2009, 06:56 AM	#7
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	You're completely correct of course and the same things I mentioned are true for those sellers as well. I think the comment directed toward the US is simply because there are far more members from there and as a result more sales set up this way.

03-31-2009, 07:17 AM	#8
Jewelltrail Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 4,180	I understand what the OP is saying, but, like others have said, selling internationally can get complicated. For example, yesterday I sold a lens to a guy in Poland. We tried to complete the deal, but ran into complications. We exchange e-mails and PMs--finally I call Paypal, then we are told all is set. Then the buyer pays me. Then I get a message buyer is not confirmed and I am not insured to send parcel to Poland. So, I call Paypal, because buyer tells e only US residents can be confirmed. Papal then tells me this is not true, to tell buyer to get confirmed. I tell buyer and he gets mad. I refund money and have to reactivate sale at Forum. This is after I especially went to Post Office to get shipping quote. Now, it is days later and I have not sold the lens. I have a ton of time into the lens and no sale. I may never try to sell internationally again. Can you understand the problem now?

03-31-2009, 07:24 AM	#9
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	what does paypal have to do with postal insurance? paypal is a tool for you to establish a contract, money in return for goods. insurance for the package is the responsibility of the courier. easy cheese. 1. weigh all your goods and know what size packages they will fit in 2. get accustomed with the courier of your choice, and their package rates. Canada Post has an easy to use online calculator, which in my experience has been bang on with what i get charged when i walk into a post office. 3. do a little reading on the countries you deal with to find out if they ahve any special provisions that you should be aware (VAT, specific goods, etc) its very easy,

03-31-2009, 01:02 PM	#10
Bramela Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Newcastle Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,284	Whilst there have been many times I was out of the circle for buying an item , simply because buyers abroad were not included, I feel it is the sellers right to choose where and how he sells an item. Disappointing many times? Very much so! But life is full of disappointments after all !

03-31-2009, 01:12 PM	#11
emr Guest	"Continental U.S. only" The question comes up every now and then. Somewhat heated discussion. I have to admit that a couple of guys ended on my ignore list due to that thread.

03-31-2009, 01:16 PM	#12
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Quote: I've sold overseas both here and eBay. It's more than just a bit of paperwork, especially if one is not familiar with the USPS online postage purchase system, through which one can complete all the paperwork automatically. It can easily take an entire lunch hour to complete a shipment at one's local Post Office. it took me a grand total of about 10 minutes (not counting five or so minutes of travel time to the post office) to package and ship a lens to Latvia from the US. it honestly only takes a minute or two to fill out a customs form. I respect anyone's right to ship where they want to and not include what ever countries they so choose. (haven't we already had this discussion?) but anyone who says shipping overseas is a time consuming burden, unless you live very far away from a post office (in that case you would surely find domestic shipping a time consuming burden as well) is just making excuses in my opinion.

03-31-2009, 04:17 PM	#13
geauxpez Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,196	Originally posted by séamuis it took me a grand total of about 10 minutes (not counting five or so minutes of travel time to the post office) to package and ship a lens to Latvia from the US. it honestly only takes a minute or two to fill out a customs form. I respect anyone's right to ship where they want to and not include what ever countries they so choose. (haven't we already had this discussion?) but anyone who says shipping overseas is a time consuming burden, unless you live very far away from a post office (in that case you would surely find domestic shipping a time consuming burden as well) is just making excuses in my opinion. True enough. I get a little nervous about offering overseas shipping (though I do it), primarily because it is such a pain for me to get to the post office when they are open since I work weekdays and they have very limited Saturday hours. I can ship packages uninsured from my office -- I don't ship overseas uninsured. I like to ship stuff out within a day or two of the sale -- not several days or (if something happens Saturday morning and I can't get to the post office) a week and a half later. It makes for a bad buyer experience.

03-31-2009, 05:35 PM	#14
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	Originally posted by Peter Zack ......A seller has almost no protection with Paypal. All a buyer has to do is claim the stuff never arrived and without proof of delivery Paypal will ALWAYS refund the buyer. Thus the seller wasn't paid and lost his items. Domestic shipping is easier, safer and given the market size in the USA, usually the stuff sells. That is not correct from my personal experience. At the heart of any Paypal dispute is who can produce proof to back their claim. As a seller, it is simple enough to produce the shipping documentation and better still a snapshot of the package and address label. I have had buyers try to make a claim saying they didn't receive the goods and in each case, Paypal ruled in my favour because I not only provided the proof of shipping but I had a package receipt confirmation which comes back to me only once the package was signed and delivered. Perhaps Paypal adopts that position as there are so many deadbeat sellers who take the money and claim to have shipped out the item but in fact never did. I experienced one such case in the past. Shipping overseas is no more difficult than to ship domestically. How much extra paperwork is there? Just a simple customs declaration. In my opinion people choose not to because of sheer ignorance, crap reasons or personal choice.

03-31-2009, 05:48 PM	#15
rpriedhorsky Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 210	Originally posted by séamuis it took me a grand total of about 10 minutes (not counting five or so minutes of travel time to the post office) to package and ship a lens to Latvia from the US. it honestly only takes a minute or two to fill out a customs form. I respect anyone's right to ship where they want to and not include what ever countries they so choose. (haven't we already had this discussion?) but anyone who says shipping overseas is a time consuming burden, unless you live very far away from a post office (in that case you would surely find domestic shipping a time consuming burden as well) is just making excuses in my opinion. Well, in addition to the actual work load, there's the cognitive load -- figuring out how to do it. If you've never or rarely shipped overseas, that's nonzero effort. This may be a quirk, but my convenient post office is in the University of Minnesota student union and it's staffed by student work study labor. I don't really trust them to be knowledgeable about overseas shipping.