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04-21-2009, 02:03 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
But they aren't safe. They can act like a plane in an accident. At 40 mph will you suvive an oncoming car, forget about a full size van?
that was not my point, but alright, i'll bite: the same can be said of bikes, motorbikes, planes ( ), scooters, and the list goes on. we still drive them, they still make sense (to some people at least)

another strange development is that we have come to expect to be able to drive into a wall and survive. maybe something is wrong there too..

04-21-2009, 02:20 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Nanok, there are plenty of Mercedes, BMW etc in Europe. Don't forget about some of the muscle cars in Italy as well.
i do know that, but i am unsure how that has to do with what i said. i'll have a blind stab at it though: european "muscle" cars are rather small actually (you would be surprised really..), and mercedes, bmw, etc range from medium sized to limousine class (which is rather normal, given their target), do not assume everybody in europe is driving a high end bmw or mercedes , for the most part they cannot afford them anyway (or justify the price). the point was that the average joe in europe will buy a smaller car than the average joe in US, and i think that's hard to argue (although it may be that things have slowly changed there too..). average joe in europe will drive a hatch actually, some sedans, some stationwagons, but even the typical station wagon here is i think significantly smaller than the typical sedan in US. engines are also smaller (2l gasoline is a serious engine, 1.3-1.4 used to be standard, now it is going down towards 1.0, because of taxes and better technology, 3l and up, you are already making a statement, what the americans are jokingly calling a "four banger" is here standard (we even had 2 stroke engines, and we still do have some 3cyl. engines), a v6 is already a hell of a statement (in US it just means you do have an engine under the hood, anything smaller than a 5l v6 needs explanation and defending -- or so i heard ), a v8 is pure aristocracy )

so yes, i think there is a difference, if that was your point
04-21-2009, 02:21 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote

another strange development is that we have come to expect to be able to drive into a wall and survive. maybe something is wrong there too..
How true is that! Probably an "unfortuneate" spin off of motor sport where you see some horrific crashes and the driver clambers out and waves to the crowd...or remonstrates with the whom ever turned him around.

Please do not think I underestimate the contribution motor sport makes to vehicle safety....I do not , many of the features in the vehicle you will drive to work tomorrow are a direct result of testing on the track.

Pity we couldn't somehow do a bit about the few inches between the ears which is still the greatest cause of road crashes (they are not accidents).
I guess this gives some people a false sense of bravado.

Interested to hear others thoughts.
Cheers
Grant
04-21-2009, 03:13 AM   #139
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i should make this clear: vehicle safety is a great development, we have come a long way, and you are right, it is mostly because of racing. i even have friends who survived in accidents which happened through no fault of their own thanks to the safety features of the car (the car was totalled). my point is that it seems now, as you mentioned, safety features tend to replace safe driving, this does not make the safety features wrong in themselves, but our attitude certainly is.

my oppinion is that the best safety features in my car are handling, the best tyres i can afford, and my brain. if i feel i am not up for driving safe anymore, i just pull over and sleep (i am known to have driven 1k km with no sleep whatsoever, and on other occasions to have slept ~40km from home -- and it was 40km of highway mostly -- after a ~200km drive, there's no rule set in stone, i just watch myself and make sure i stop before it's too late).

from racing we also got cars that can go fast and still handle, cars which are responsive, driving techniques to make it safer, unfortunately the last part does not come with the price of the car, so few people actually know what i am talking about. i see so many people going into a bend too fast and desperately hitting the breaks afterwards, they either get scared and never do it again, or they are bound to become a statistical figure soon.

one of the things which opened my eyes regarding this trend was a wonderful short film about abs. the tag line was "stomp, stay, steer". i was so shocked i couldn't quite speak after i saw it. it is so wrong in so many ways, and such a lie when it comes down to it, that i don't even know where to start. so maybe i will end instead: it may be that abs is the worse feature ever introduced on street cars, and it might even be that, globaly, it is a cause for accidents rather than a help in avoiding them. as a technical solution, perhaps there's nothing wrong with abs in itself, but what it promises, and the kind of behaviour it encourages, more than makes up for any help abs would provide.

04-21-2009, 03:23 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mallee Boy Quote
(...)

Pity we couldn't somehow do a bit about the few inches between the ears which is still the greatest cause of road crashes (they are not accidents).
I guess this gives some people a false sense of bravado.

Interested to hear others thoughts.
Cheers
Grant
to be clear, i slightly disagree with you here: we can do something about that. it's called safe driving, most good racing pilots know how to do it, and there are schools which teach it to anybody (i know at least in germany there is such thing, and i hear in finland it is _Standard_). the problem is that to get a driving license, in most cases, you need to learn the rules and how to operate a car, which is simply wrong. often you will also be thought unsafe behavior by the instructor, because it is simpler and faster, on the long run it might get you in trouble, but that's left for you to figure out. safe driving, car control in slippery situations (including drifting, understeering, oversteering, and so on) should be a mandatory part of any driving school, car dynamics (basic physics) also should be part of the things they make you learn (along with road code). speed limits, speed cameras, abs, esp, larger penaltyes, more police cars are not solutions and do not save lives, upgrade the driver, and do it on a global scale.
04-21-2009, 06:36 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
that was not my point, but alright, i'll bite: the same can be said of bikes, motorbikes, planes ( ), scooters, and the list goes on. we still drive them, they still make sense (to some people at least)

another strange development is that we have come to expect to be able to drive into a wall and survive. maybe something is wrong there too..
The same can be said of bikes, motorcycles, etc. But with a small thing like smart(stupid) car and it having sides it give a false sense of security. I've had one accident serious enough to total the other car. I was doing about 35 (under the limit) and this kid came out and didn't even see me. He's in a toyoda and if it weren't for knowing what to do and being alert his gal would be dead. I hit him in the strongest part of the car. Right on the front pillar. If that was a smart car it would have been a different story. My car had the front bumber/grill and left fender crunched.

Too many people do everything BUT drive. Men shaving, women and makeup while talking on cell phone smoking a cigarette and shifting gears.

Smart fortwo Goes Airborne in Crash Test - Gearlog
04-21-2009, 10:17 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by nanok Quote
to be clear, i slightly disagree with you here: we can do something about that. it's called safe driving, most good racing pilots know how to do it, and there are schools which teach it to anybody (i know at least in germany there is such thing, and i hear in finland it is _Standard_). the problem is that to get a driving license, in most cases, you need to learn the rules and how to operate a car, which is simply wrong. often you will also be thought unsafe behavior by the instructor, because it is simpler and faster, on the long run it might get you in trouble, but that's left for you to figure out. safe driving, car control in slippery situations (including drifting, understeering, oversteering, and so on) should be a mandatory part of any driving school, car dynamics (basic physics) also should be part of the things they make you learn (along with road code). speed limits, speed cameras, abs, esp, larger penaltyes, more police cars are not solutions and do not save lives, upgrade the driver, and do it on a global scale.
Safety seems to be superceded by getting people on the road and generating profits here in the U.S., seems that way to me anyway. When I was getting my licence at the DMV, the guy in front of me (in his seventies at least) was taking his vision test (the charts hang up behind the clerks) and the clerk just let him keep trying until he guessed it right. I say guessed instead of got because no way could he read the chart and the clerk even gave him a few hints. I'm sure that's not an exception, and these are the kind of people who drive big old cadillacs and have to peer through the wheel because they can't see over it.

04-21-2009, 10:50 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
Safety seems to be superceded by getting people on the road and generating profits here in the U.S., seems that way to me anyway. When I was getting my licence at the DMV, the guy in front of me (in his seventies at least) was taking his vision test (the charts hang up behind the clerks) and the clerk just let him keep trying until he guessed it right. I say guessed instead of got because no way could he read the chart and the clerk even gave him a few hints. I'm sure that's not an exception, and these are the kind of people who drive big old cadillacs and have to peer through the wheel because they can't see over it.
And then go out and kill people by driving into a farmers market in the middle of town because they did not see the orange safety cones and the white pop-up tents full of people.
You got to love the helpful folks at the DMV who feel sorry for the old people struggling with the "eye test". Their hearts are in the right place... too bad their brains are in their butt.
04-21-2009, 10:54 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
And then go out and kill people by driving into a farmers market in the middle of town because they did not see the orange safety cones and the white pop-up tents full of people.
You got to love the helpful folks at the DMV who feel sorry for the old people struggling with the "eye test". Their hearts are in the right place... too bad their brains are in their butt.
Ah Gus, there you are, I'm still waiting for a response to the PM, it's the 24th on Friday.
E and the HR, remember?
04-28-2009, 08:25 PM   #145
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I read an article in a local paper ( the riverfront times ) about some scary defects with the Prius. Brakes failing, accelerating on it's own, etc. Plus, they are just plain UGLY of course, Toyota is denying everything, saying it is driver error...
04-28-2009, 09:12 PM   #146
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I just read an article in the Smithsonian magazine. It seems we as a species have an inherent attraction to danger. Safety devices like ABS (for example) can serve to make us overdo it in search of that danger.
An example they gave was from the early days of motoring in England. A homeowner in a small village was asked to trim back his hedges in the interests of safety because drivers could not see too far ahead. On cutting back the hedges, it was noticed that cars would now speed up going through the village. When asked why, drivers said they sped up because they could see so far ahead.
04-29-2009, 09:45 PM   #147
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I saw a Prius driver today gabbin' on his cellphone and not using his turn signal while making lane changes (at terrifying speed! ) then later the same day I saw an old guy roll up in a Prius at the gas-station I was parked in to get some propane... his tires were all under-inflated too... oooooohh the irony.
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