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05-17-2009, 07:25 AM   #1
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What possible harm could I have done ....

Long Story ...... grab a coffee

Once before while photographing a sunrise on a range road (think in the country) I had the police called on me because someone was nervous there was a stranger taking pictures of their land with a tripod and a bigma. I remember a car driving by me going real slow so they must have took my license plate down and later that eveing the police called me and asked if I was taking pictues at the above location. After talking to police I understood why as there have been several break-ins in that area. Nothing was done and the police officer and I had a laugh and he just suggested I don't take pictures in that area again, and I haven't. That was my first run in with anyone being upset with my passion, but as I mentioned I understood their fear.

Now yesterday the wife and I stopped at Tim Horton’s (a Canadian Donut shot , think Dunkin Donuts or Krispy Creme) for a coffee. While standing in line I looked at the display case and decided to take a shot of the 1 million calories in front of me . When I got up to the counter , one of the employees handed me a cell phone and said someone wants to talk to you. I was like what ??? Me?? Are you sure ???

The manager comes on and asks me if I took a picture of her display case. I said yes I did. Then she asked why. Fair enough although I had no real reason , I said as much as told her I was not a professional, just a hobbyist who thought at that particular moment all those donuts looked great in the case. She then asked what I planned to do with the photo. Again I was honest, said I had no real plans. I would look at the shot , if it was sharp , in focus and I liked it I would probably keep it , if not I would delete it. She said she was not sure this was allowed and would have to check with her district manager about this. She asked me to leave my name and phone number, which I refused to actually.

So here I am in line at Tim Horton’s and now the line is getting bigger , talking to a manager on some employee's cell phone about my diabolic plans on what evil I was up to with the shot of the secret donut display case. I was stunned , almost speechless. I told her look if this picture was causing so much stress and grief I would delete it. This seemed to calm her down and I left the place.

I know others have had similar stories , this one threw me for a loop. I felt like I was doing something wrong and I was not. Does every place have to have a no pictures allowed sign in it ?

I have never worked in a retail store before. I just don't understand the paranoia ? It was a display case of donuts ??? There were no prices . Recipes, trade secrets , nothing that even indicated it was a Tim Horton’s' or what store it was from ?? ?

Can anyone offer an opinion as to why this was an issue ? Do retails stores send spies to the competition to see what's up ? And if they do , they surely are a little more subtle than someone 6"2' caring a K20D with a battery grip, a lowepro Computer treker backpack on I did have the DA 35LTD on but still , if my plan was infiltration of some sort , a small PS or cell phone would have been a tad more discrete.

Ohh and here is the secret shot , I was anoyed enough to not delete it , I can't think of any diabolic plan for this shot , nor how to profit from it,so how about if you like the shot PM me and I can send you my Pay Pal adress where you can donate $100 so I can startup Dave's Donuts and put Tim Hortons out of buinsess

In reality I kind of understand why they were nervous - just thought the reaction was over the top. If you actually read all this thanks for listening.

[IMGWIDEleft]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2307/3538217679_7d3b386aeb_b.jpg[/IMGWIDEleft]


Last edited by daacon; 05-17-2009 at 07:48 AM.
05-17-2009, 07:34 AM   #2
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Dave, there seems to be a lot of this going around - fear of terrorism is making a lot of mall-cop types very aggressive, and rules tend to get misinterpreted, and then the situation blows up of the photographer chooses to point out that they actually have rights...

In this case it was probably just someone worrying about competition, although I can't imagine that the donut world is that cutthroat.

As far as I know (I'm not Canadian,) you were under no obligation to give out your name and phone number.
05-17-2009, 08:39 AM   #3
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Maybe the donut shop was afraid of the huge rush of Pentax weilding individuals whom you have made hungry for donuts!

Here in the good old sue happy US someone could use a picture like that as evidence of a health code violation, or some other bs. Sad, isn't it?

P.S. I like the photo!
05-17-2009, 08:52 AM   #4
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Quite honestly, I'd be making a point of pursuing my passion for photography in that area for some time to come.
But that's just me.
Tim Horton stores are private property, so they can pretty much make up the rules on the fly.
If they don't have a "no photography" sign posted, about all they can tell you to do is stop taking pictures, they can't enforce a delete order.
FWIW, I never have this problem at Robin's Donuts, the service is faster and the coffee is better.
Tim Hortons sucks on so many levels.

The only person you have to give your name and phone number to is a police officer (rent-a-cops don't count). I believe, but could be wrong, that you don't have to ID yourself to a cop unless you are under arrest, providing you are not operating a motor vehicle, at which time a police officer can demand a drivers licence as proof you have a right to drive.
Even this is becoming a bit gray, as police are more and more being made to prove they had reasonable grounds to pull drivers over.

05-17-2009, 09:30 AM   #5
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Jay - I agree sad state of affairs indeed

Steve - do you need my paypal address

Wheatfield - as to your first point perhaps if it was the definitive photographic spot I might have gone back , but we live in a big ass country and the spot was not that special . I edited the post to indicate I did not give my name and number and had no intentions of. As for the rights of the police - I don't know exactly what they are - but I know enough to be polite and courteous when stopped by them - it's a confrontation that I would rarely 'win' in the short term right or wrong and why piss 'em off ? And as for Tim Hortons' sucks - don't go there often enough anymore - but those double double's are like a treat once in a while..... and I do like their breakfast sandwich another monthly treat. Don't think I have seen a Robins donuts anywhere in the area ..

Last edited by daacon; 05-17-2009 at 09:44 AM.
05-17-2009, 09:31 AM   #6
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It's a private establishment. They have the right to restrict photography for any reason on their property. They don't have to explain their reasons to you, but if they tell you to stop, then you are obligated to stop. They can't compel you to delete anything you have already taken.

Many retail stores have policies prohibiting photography.
05-17-2009, 09:37 AM   #7
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alohadave - that is fair enough - then those polices should be posted for all to see - it's just a little ridiculous that we have come to this point .... CYA just in case. I have been to private property where there were signs indicating no photograpphy at all or no flash photography and I totally agree with them. Just found it silly a Donut Shop would care one way or the other....

05-17-2009, 09:37 AM   #8
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I have worked in the wholesale/retail industry for most of my working life.

I am a sales rep for a major ice cream company.

It can be and is at times cutthroat.

They thought you were spying.

Most "spies"don't use DSLR's to gather information;
they usually act as customers pretending to be loyal patrons.

But managers do and don't know this and you stood out like a sore thumb.

Obviously you ment no harm.

That is the way it is in that industry.
05-17-2009, 09:41 AM   #9
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Rob - like I said in my closing statment in the OP I kinda understood the underlying why's - but common sense seemed to have left the building. I am sure the manager was freaked - as who the heck takes pictures of donuts unless they were told to by someone ? (thus the paranoia) I should have shown her my flickr site and then she would have understood
05-17-2009, 09:45 AM   #10
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That choc-mint doughnut looks hideous!
05-17-2009, 09:51 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by daacon Quote
Rob - like I said in my closing statment in the OP I kinda understood the underlying why's - but common sense seemed to have left the building. I am sure the manager was freaked - as who the heck takes pictures of donuts unless they were told to by someone ? (thus the paranoia) I should have shown her my flickr site and then she would have understood
The manager was ignorant and had no comon sense. Wheatfield said is was not a very good doughnut shop in his opinion. Maybe they are hurting for business and maybe not.

If a person with a camera walked into my place of business with a camera, I may see this as a form of free advertisement.

The manager did not see it this way.

I manage different retail grocery chains on my route for my company.

I have seen employees from other chains in the competotion's stores.

They aint packing camera's.

They are writing on small notepads comparing prices.

One of those employees was caught and asked to leave the store.

People are people and competition and paranoia run hand in hand.
05-17-2009, 09:54 AM   #12
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What they said but to add. Over here in blight and probably in the USA and Canada, judges take a very dim view on destruction of evidence. So if a rent-a-cop or a real cop asks you to delete a photo, you are well within you right to say no.

They can't confiscate equipment unless you have been arrested.
05-17-2009, 10:15 AM   #13
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Dave,

Ambientlight.ca - Laws

See here for some of the existing laws in Canada. They had the right to tell you to stop. You had the right to NOT answer their questions and leave. They fails to have signage indicating no more photos but had the right to tell you to stop or leave.
05-17-2009, 10:17 AM   #14
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I guess my point is taken no common sense - it just disaapoints me a little each time when I run into situations like this. Had they tried forced me to delete it and wanted to take my camera it would have taken more than the Tim Horton's staff to do that

As to is it a good Donut Shop ? A long time ago I had heard so many accolades on the Krispy Creme donut and when I finally had one I found it no better or worse than any other donut I have had. I don't find Tim Horton’s coffee or donuts any better or worse than a lot of places. Good is subjective.

I would wager though that Tim Horton's are one of the most successful Canadian franchises ever, they win like Wal-Mart wins, they are everywhere, huge marketing campaigns and sponsor some iconic Canadian events.......

woodworm - I would have to agree with you there but mint is a hugely popular flavor and most like chocolate , my wife likes these me not so much. When I look at some of the flavors of a lot of foods (especially processed) you got to wonder who came up with them ....

Last edited by daacon; 05-17-2009 at 10:31 AM.
05-17-2009, 10:19 AM   #15
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Thanks for the link Denis - cool.

Edit: I love this quote from Superintendent Dave Pickford, Windsor Police Service

"Bottom line......... if it is viewable to the public, I see nothing wrong with taking a picture of it."

Last edited by daacon; 05-17-2009 at 10:25 AM.
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