[slomojoe]

If what they are planning is so great then our reps should put their money, I mean life, where their mouth is. They need to use the same system we will have to.

They already do, with choices between public and private plans. Republicans just don't want everyone else to have the same options.

The Obama says it will increase competition. It's really hard to compete with something that can either print more money or just tax its citizens more. It will drive insurance companies out and there will be no real choice. Rationed care.

That makes no sense. Every individual will pay for their own health care, with the public or private plan of their choice, with their own money (or government help when necessary), according to their needs. The government does not "print money" to pay for anyone's care, any more than private insurance companies do.

The financial advantages that the government has that private insurance companies don't is a) huge numbers of subscribers, which mean more bargaining power, b) much lower overhead/administrative costs (including utterly insane executive salaries), and c) it needs to just break even, and not pay dividends.

As it is now, only a fraction of your private insurance payments is actually going to medical care, while the majority goes into administrative costs (most of which, ironically, is devoted to limiting your care when you need it the most), investors, and executives.

[ve2vfd]

Cheaper? You mean you have to PAY for your healthcare too?

If course we pay for healthcare, thru our taxes.

But back to the intent of your question, yes we may pay for treatment if we decide to go to a private clinic instead of using the public "free" system.

Also in the case of life threatning conditions, the government is obligated to give you the treatment within a reasonable timeframe. If in your area thats not possible (for whatever reason), then they will pay to send you to another area where the treatment is available, and in some cases if the closest place the treatment available at the best price is the USA, then they'll send you there.

You don't really hear people of the US going there for treatment though.

You are probably not listening too hard then... it's actually a major problem here. Americans defrauding our medicare system is a plague in all Canadian towns that are near the US border. They come here for "free" treatment and borrow friends or family's medicare cards, pretend they lost their card and even use fake cards. Medicare fraud from US citizens costs Canadian tax payers insane amounts of money.

Pat

If course we pay for healthcare, thru our taxes.

But back to the intent of your question, yes we may pay for treatment if we decide to go to a private clinic instead of using the public "free" system.

Also in the case of life threatning conditions, the government is obligated to give you the treatment within a reasonable timeframe. If in your area thats not possible (for whatever reason), then they will pay to send you to another area where the treatment is available, and in some cases if the closest place the treatment available at the best price is the USA, then they'll send you there.



You are probably not listening too hard then... it's actually a major problem here. Americans defrauding our medicare system is a plague in all Canadian towns that are near the US border. They come here for "free" treatment and borrow friends or family's medicare cards, pretend they lost their card and even use fake cards. Medicare fraud from US citizens costs Canadian tax payers insane amounts of money.

Pat

But isn't private health ins. illegal?

So you have the same problem we have with the illegal mexicans.

[ve2vfd]

We do not have private hospitals, but there are plenty of private clinics.

Yup, we have uninsured Americans who defraud our system, though I would not use the term "illegal" as they enter the country legally and go back home after their treatment. They just come up and abuse our system.

Pat

We do not have private hospitals, but there are plenty of private clinics.

Yup, we have uninsured Americans who defraud our system, though I would not use the term "illegal" as they enter the country legally and go back home after their treatment. They just come up and abuse our system.

Pat

Down here we do call them illegal. Cause that's what they are.

Aren't the private clinics illegal also? But the government allows them to function because without it the system would fail?


At any rate. What they plan to do here will kill our healthcare and will shut quite a few small businesses that are marginal down. Most shops that this will affect are holding on treading water. Profits in most small businesses aren't what they use to be. Between the added taxes etc this will shut em down.

Problem is they don't have a clue how to fix the problem. Well they don't have a clue about much of anything.

So if I have health insurance I like and pay for I also get to pay for those who don't? How's that fair to me?

[Shibby3.8]

YOU are the one ultimately responsible for your health care needs. So don't go to the doctor every month.
I talk to my doctor. I tell him what procedures I want and what I want done.
If what they are planning is so great then our reps should put their money, I mean life, where their mouth is. They need to use the same system we will have to. The Obama says it will increase competition. It's really hard to compete with something that can either print more money or just tax its citizens more. It will drive insurance companies out and there will be no real choice. Rationed care.

There also needs to be a change in the mindset of the end user. (That's you)

Of course I'm responsible for our health care... you must not understand how this doctor patient thing works...

We go to the doctor for a problem, my wife stubbed her toe, the nail fell off. We call her primary (she's great) and she sends us to a podiatrist. The first visit is as expected, the doc checks the toe gives her a script for blood work at the lab because he wants to put her on Lamisil. We go to the lab have the blood work done. The doctor gets the blood work back and calls my wife to have her come back in. He won't just send in the prescription, he required us to make another visit. So she goes (2 office visits and 1 lab visit and still no actual treatment) he gives her a script for... 2 month of a 3 month plan... then says he wants to see her in another month. We couldn't get a refill until we saw him again. So my wife went to see him again at which point he wrote a script for 1 more month.

He asked to see her again at the end of month 2 and we simply canceled the appointment and haven't gone back.

Do you see where he was going with the office visit's? He ultimately would have seen my wife 6 times at 65 bucks (thats not including the cost to my insurance). Sure its a one time treatment but thats bullshit plain and simple. If we were to switch doctors at that time we'd end up paying more because we'd have to start the process over again.

I simply want a change in the industry and how the actual providers operate, unfortunately society holds doctors in such high regard that minor complaints of cost or customer service fall on deaf ears. A shake up is certainly needed.

[Wheatfield]

Down here we do call them illegal. Cause that's what they are.

Aren't the private clinics illegal also? But the government allows them to function because without it the system would fail?


At any rate. What they plan to do here will kill our healthcare and will shut quite a few small businesses that are marginal down. Most shops that this will affect are holding on treading water. Profits in most small businesses aren't what they use to be. Between the added taxes etc this will shut em down.

Problem is they don't have a clue how to fix the problem. Well they don't have a clue about much of anything.

So if I have health insurance I like and pay for I also get to pay for those who don't? How's that fair to me?

We have private clinics, the health care providers bill the government for payment though.
I think Alberta may be toying with the idea of for profit medical care, but doing so would put them in contravention of the health act.
In regards to your last sentence, a measure of how civilized a society is is to see how it cares for it's weak, it's disenfranchised and it's ill and infirm.
If you want to live in a civilized society you have to share some of your wealth with people who are less well off, generally by paying taxes and letting the government sort it out.
The other option is to let the bodies pile up on street corners.
One of the truisms of capitalism is that for one person to be rich, several other people have to be poor, not necessarily for lack of trying to be rich.
Rich people generally become that way on the backs of people who are less well off.

[NaClH2O]

Snip

This plan they are pushing through should be called rationed care. Look at Britain. Women now can't get drugs for breast cancer.

And there are over 40,000,000 people in the US on rationed care now. They don't get ANYTHING! No drugs, no care, no doctors.

NaCl(United States, only first world country without comrehensive health care)H2O

[ve2vfd]

I think Alberta may be toying with the idea of for profit medical care, but doing so would put them in contravention of the health act.

We have for profit private clinics in Quebec as well as public ones. The rules in this province is that a doctor may work in a private (for profit) clinic OR in the public system but not in both.

(Maybe we should mention that Medicare in Canada is NOT federally run. It's federally mandated and they supply a certain percentage of the budget. Medicare is actually administered by the provinces so though basic care remains the same, the rules can vary a little from one province to another)

Personally I like the public/private system in this province. I pay my taxes and have access to the public system, I also have supplemental insurance at work so I can use the private clinics.

Some jealous communists don't like the fact that there are private clinics here because they can't afford them and figure if they can't acces them, nobody should. Personally I think thats ridiculous as for every person who pays to use a private clinic it frees up a spot in the public system and speeds up service for everyone else.

Pat

We have private clinics, the health care providers bill the government for payment though.
I think Alberta may be toying with the idea of for profit medical care, but doing so would put them in contravention of the health act.
In regards to your last sentence, a measure of how civilized a society is is to see how it cares for it's weak, it's disenfranchised and it's ill and infirm.
If you want to live in a civilized society you have to share some of your wealth with people who are less well off, generally by paying taxes and letting the government sort it out.
The other option is to let the bodies pile up on street corners.
One of the truisms of capitalism is that for one person to be rich, several other people have to be poor, not necessarily for lack of trying to be rich.
Rich people generally become that way on the backs of people who are less well off.

They bill the government. Uhm, the "government" doesn't make money. It only confiscates it. From you.

Well I know a few "rich" people. They sell or manufacture a product people want to buy. Not something the government told them to manufacture. Their customers? Well sure aint no one holding a gun to their head making them buy said product. The employees? They have a job and get paid because this "rich" dude makes and sells a product people want to buy. The employees don't have to work for them. No one is holding a gun making them work there. The CHOOSe to work there. I choose to work where I am.

The "rich" dude. He spent 15 years developing this product. The patent runs out in 5 years so he has to "improve" it somehow to get another patent. The 15 years of R & D cost him millions of investor $$$$$ and he almost didn't make it. This "rich" dude spent years of his time, $$$$ he borrowed, etc. and there was no guarantee it would ever sell. And you think he doesn't deserve the right to reap the benefits? That he should be taxed at 60% or better because he was successful… finally?

Again.... you have the RIGHT to work wherever you can get hired. You don't like your salary? Move on. Get a better paying job. No one has a gun to your head.

Look at it this way. Lets break all the rich folk. We don't need their stinkin jobs. We can tax em and get our entitlement check. Oh wait. We can't That rich guy is on line with us because we taxed him so much he shut down. And now those employees have no job.

And there are over 40,000,000 people in the US on rationed care now. They don't get ANYTHING! No drugs, no care, no doctors.

NaCl(United States, only first world country without comrehensive health care)H2O

More like 45 million with out health insurance. But a report I read said about 9 million choose to be without it (and they make 50 grand or more) If you have no money by law you must be treated. (I saw the sign in the hospital when my wife was in the ER)

[Wheatfield]

They bill the government. Uhm, the "government" doesn't make money. It only confiscates it. From you.

Well I know a few "rich" people. They sell or manufacture a product people want to buy. Not something the government told them to manufacture. Their customers? Well sure aint no one holding a gun to their head making them buy said product. The employees? They have a job and get paid because this "rich" dude makes and sells a product people want to buy. The employees don't have to work for them. No one is holding a gun making them work there. The CHOOSe to work there. I choose to work where I am.

The "rich" dude. He spent 15 years developing this product. The patent runs out in 5 years so he has to "improve" it somehow to get another patent. The 15 years of R & D cost him millions of investor $$$$$ and he almost didn't make it. This "rich" dude spent years of his time, $$$$ he borrowed, etc. and there was no guarantee it would ever sell. And you think he doesn't deserve the right to reap the benefits? That he should be taxed at 60% or better because he was successful… finally?

Again.... you have the RIGHT to work wherever you can get hired. You don't like your salary? Move on. Get a better paying job. No one has a gun to your head.

Look at it this way. Lets break all the rich folk. We don't need their stinkin jobs. We can tax em and get our entitlement check. Oh wait. We can't That rich guy is on line with us because we taxed him so much he shut down. And now those employees have no job.

That is almost mindlessly simplistic.
Anyway, I know quite a few very well off people as well. They have employees who make slightly more than minimum wage.
Not everyone has the wherewithall to become bank presidents, and if they did, who would sweep the floors?

Social Security is bankrupt as is medicare.

So would Wall Street and the car industry without our tax dollars. Social Security is in a whole due to lack of foresight when it was established and lack of willingness to make changes when they should have been made. Medicare is in trouble due to soaring medical costs caused by the insurance companies, drug companies and medical industry's insistence in putting profits ahead of care.


3 things need to happen.

1. There must be legislation brought forth where "our" representatives must actually read the bills they vote on.

2. All members of the government including the Senators and Representatives and the President MUST be on this plan and give up the one you and I currently pay for that they have now.

3. They must give up their current retirement package and use the Social Security system that you and I won't get at retirement because it is bankrupt.
So start an online petition, that's easy enough,people on here will sign it, I'm sure most would agree with you on this occasion. We all know people not on this forum who would sign. Once the ball is rolling it would get publicity from that liberal media you keep going on about that I think you'll find if you care to look is about 97% owned by right wingers.


What makes you think that they won't bankrupt this plan as they did medicare and medicaid. The only part that came in under budget was Part D
See above


This plan they are pushing through should be called rationed care. Look at Britain. Women now can't get drugs for breast cancer.
That's because of the cost of the drugs. People all over the US don't get drugs or treatment, period and not just for cancer.

You evaded my question by the way.

Funny though you always hear stories of people from Britain and Canada coming to the US for treatment they can't get in their own country. You don't really hear people of the US going there for treatment though. Well they do go to Mexico for coffee enemas and such.

Elective surgery mainly, Florida being the fake tits capital of the world.
Even that's changing though, other parts of the world are taking over in various specialities. They are doing it CHEAPER and BETTER than American doctors as well.

When are you guys gonna get the fact that the tide has turned against the US, 19th century attitude, philosophy and hypocrisy doesn't work in the 21st centry. It's time for all you Rip Van Winkles to wake up.

[Ratmagiclady]

I really don't know what it is people think private insurance gives them. I won't soon forget the day when I was in an emergency room with a chronic condition flared up badly... "Why are you here today," says insurance clerk, "Umm, I can't feel my hands." "Great, now fill out these forms for our insurance,"


The way I see it, single-payer would really sort things out quick. As of the Nineties, almost half of the cost of running a hospital or clinic was in administering various for-profit health plans just to operate.

I say, If someone rich wants the special service club, they can pay for *that* Cash on the barrelhead, Diner's Club, who cares.

Abstractions about 'fear of socialism' are just no excuse for us to treat ourselves this way. If not getting ripped off on health care is something red-blooded Americans can't manage without 'The Invisible Hand Of The Market' taking its share for its *oh-so-benificent overlordship,* then we don't *deserve* capitalism.

Capitalism also means, if you're getting ripped off, *unionize.*

Really, the corporations have been claiming all along that somehow our 'quality of care' would be diminished with 'socialized medicine,' ...as opposed to *what,* of course, when half of it goes to trying to administer someone else making a buck to begin with... Then, of course, they don't want there to be a 'public *option,* cause suddenly, the poor wittle insurance giants 'couldn't compete.' If they 'can't compete,' even by cherry-picking clients and kicking people off coverage if they ever have the temerity to not just pay money for nothing and actually get *sick* or anything....

Is that 'The market?'

Interesting, no?