The Obama Address

causey · 09-10-2009, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by JHfwp

Not that I think this site should allow political "discussions", but I thought it was an excellent speech. What follows is all that matters though.

In total agreement.

slomojoe · 09-10-2009, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Medicare has billions of dollars in fraud. They can't stop it. What you can't make up is the drivel the Obama spouts. Of course he has his new book coming out. How to destroy the USA in 2 years or less

Once again, I give you facts from a linked source, which you can dispute with counterevidence if you wish, and you reply with silly insults.

The truth is, the private health insurance system is subject to fraud as well, and that fraud amounts to billions as well. The extent of fraudulent costs associated with the entire US health care system is estimated between 3 and 10% of total health expenditures, and there is no major difference between Medicare/Medicaid and private health insurance, when adjusted for relative size and demographics. The only difference between fraud in the Medicare and Medicaid systems is that, unlike private health insurance, there is no known instance of fraud perpetrated by the providers against the consumers.

So, if your arguments boils down to: "Fraud in Medicare demonstrates that the government cannot run health care", it's just plain nonsense.

causey · 09-10-2009, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Jasvox

P.S.

According the the CIA factbook...USA ranks 9th in the world for percentage of people living life in ill health (in need of treatment) at 10.8 percent of the population. Countries 1-8 are mostly third world countries. Sound like a successful system for the world's most advanced nation?

Jas

True, but I'm afraid this is a cultural problem (if talk of cultural problems makes sense) more than a medical one. The American way of life, rather than than the lack of medical care, is the leading cause of the poor state of health of US population. Stress, lack of communication, bad food, too much driving (and little biking, jogging, swimming...), and so on.

geauxpez · 09-10-2009, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

Ash, this is America, it won't work because there's no profit in it. It's as simple as that.

That and the T-word. There is a sizeable part of the population here that would rather go without healthcare than pay a tax for it to be provided.

graphicgr8s · 09-10-2009, 06:31 AM

Yeah. I DID listen to the speech. I heard every word the man said. The "plan" still won't cover 14.4 million. Not my numbers here. CBO says it will run into a deficit. Again not my "fact" that's the CBO. He says it won't cover illegals. That's not entirely true. There is no wording in any bill that implicitly omits them. If it aint in writing....
Preventive care WON'T save money. And again not me saying that. Check it out on politifact.com.
He also said it had to not increase the deficit. He would cut spending. Well where are you spending money? Healthcare right? So you will cut/ration it to decrease spending.
Slo sure there's fraud in the private sector as well. But there it is coming out of investor pockets so they try to curtail as much as possible. Not so with government programs. And there is plenty of evidence for that. You're on the government dole so I understand. Maybe if you were out in the real world and had to make a profit for your boss you'd understand. Instead of just letting us taxpayers worry about your salary.

The US unlike quite a few other countries airs it's laundry for all to see. I have a feeling most others don't so we don't see the downside to the other "perfect" systems. How much in the red they are and what not. And what it really costs in taxes and fees.

deadwolfbones · 09-10-2009, 06:52 AM

According to most fact checkers you're correct on the deficit issue. However...

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

He says it won't cover illegals. That's not entirely true. There is no wording in any bill that implicitly omits them. If it aint in writing....

Quote:

OBAMA: "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." One congressman, South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson, shouted "You lie!" from his seat in the House chamber when Obama made this assertion. Wilson later apologized.

THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't get tax subsidies to help them. Still, Republicans say there are not sufficient citizenship verification requirements to ensure illegal immigrants are excluded from benefits they are not due.

The Associated Press: FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge

graphicgr8s · 09-10-2009, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

According to most fact checkers you're correct on the deficit issue. However...

The Associated Press: FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge

Quote:

OBAMA: "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period."

THE FACTS: Though there's no final plan yet, the White House and congressional Democrats already have shown they're ready to skirt the no-new-deficits pledge.

House Democrats offered a bill that the Congressional Budget Office said would add $220 billion to the deficit over 10 years. But Democrats and Obama administration officials claimed the bill actually was deficit-neutral. They said they simply didn't have to count $245 billion of it — the cost of adjusting Medicare reimbursement rates so physicians don't face big annual pay cuts.

Their reasoning was that they already had decided to exempt this "doc fix" from congressional rules that require new programs to be paid for. In other words, it doesn't have to be paid for because they decided it doesn't have to be paid for.

The administration also said that since Obama already had included the doctor payment in his 10-year budget proposal, it didn't have to be counted again.

That aside, the long-term prognosis for costs of the health care legislation has not been good.

CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf had this to say in July: "We do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount."

And there are what 5 versions out there?

deadwolfbones · 09-10-2009, 06:58 AM

I guarantee you he's not going to sneak any language in there at the last minute to give free healthcare to filthy Mexican terrorists just to screw himself over.

edit: why the edit to make it look like I was responding to a different issue?

graphicgr8s · 09-10-2009, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

I guarantee you he's not going to sneak any language in there at the last minute to give free healthcare to filthy Mexican terrorists just to screw himself over.

edit: why the edit to make it look like I was responding to a different issue?

Wasn't done on purpose.

But like most things if it isn't spelled out as to who is eligible it will be interpreted incorrectly. There needs to be wording that specifies who is eligible. I got thru 437 pages of the bill. Wonder how many the Obama read.

Jasvox · 09-10-2009, 08:17 AM

The cost to date of the war in Iraq: $681.5 billion.

If we can find the money to kill people abroad, we can find the money to help Americans.

Jason

source: Cost of War | National Priorities Project

bwield · 09-10-2009, 08:37 AM

The only thing that seems to be globally constant in Health care is that no one wants theirs changed.
I consider myself fairly conservative (For a Canadian.... therefore I think that makes me communist no?) but I love our health care system.

I had a major surgery last year that required a week hospital stay. From first consultation to when I stopped getting at home care, the whole process took 4 months, 1 one of those months includes hospital stay and at home care.

I will most likely require two more surgeries in the next year (one being a major heart surgery) and I am pretty happy that I wont be 1) paying out of pocket or 2) living at the mercy of my insurance company who control my monthly rates.

I realized last week that nothing makes me appreciate Canada (as a whole, not just health care) more than reading these political forums or the "Discussions" that happen on Foxnews.com / Cnn.com. I don't know why i even look at those... "Discussions"... but i surmise it has something to do with the same reason people cant look away from a train wreck..

graphicgr8s · 09-10-2009, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by bwield

The only thing that seems to be globally constant in Health care is that no one wants theirs changed.
I consider myself fairly conservative (For a Canadian.... therefore I think that makes me communist no?)

No. Liberal= Communist.

bwield · 09-10-2009, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

No. Liberal= Communist.

Man... you Americans would just LOVE our NDP party...
Even our "conservative" party is more liberal than Obama

graphicgr8s · 09-10-2009, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by bwield

Man... you Americans would just LOVE our NDP party...
Even our "conservative" party is more liberal than Obama

Obama's a socialist/Marxist

melander · 09-10-2009, 09:30 AM

Population in USA: 300 miljon (aprox)
People that are left without health care: 10-15%

Summary: 30-45 Miljon People. Procents can be dangerous. Look at the real number instead. 30-45 MILJON Living and breathing humans (well, maby not for too long)

What are you affraid of anyway. That the people that cant get treatments will get healthy again and start working, taking your jobs. Because they sure as hell will work better than the people that dont have any compation left in them.

Quote:

Obama's a socialist/Marxist

Oh my, what a surpice you will get if you someday go outside of usa

09-10-2009, 06:31 AM	#35
graphicgr8s Guest	Yeah. I DID listen to the speech. I heard every word the man said. The "plan" still won't cover 14.4 million. Not my numbers here. CBO says it will run into a deficit. Again not my "fact" that's the CBO. He says it won't cover illegals. That's not entirely true. There is no wording in any bill that implicitly omits them. If it aint in writing.... Preventive care WON'T save money. And again not me saying that. Check it out on politifact.com. He also said it had to not increase the deficit. He would cut spending. Well where are you spending money? Healthcare right? So you will cut/ration it to decrease spending. Slo sure there's fraud in the private sector as well. But there it is coming out of investor pockets so they try to curtail as much as possible. Not so with government programs. And there is plenty of evidence for that. You're on the government dole so I understand. Maybe if you were out in the real world and had to make a profit for your boss you'd understand. Instead of just letting us taxpayers worry about your salary. The US unlike quite a few other countries airs it's laundry for all to see. I have a feeling most others don't so we don't see the downside to the other "perfect" systems. How much in the red they are and what not. And what it really costs in taxes and fees. Last edited by graphicgr8s; 09-10-2009 at 06:55 AM.

09-10-2009, 08:37 AM	#41
bwield Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 444	Ahh health care.. The only thing that seems to be globally constant in Health care is that no one wants theirs changed. I consider myself fairly conservative (For a Canadian.... therefore I think that makes me communist no?) but I love our health care system. I had a major surgery last year that required a week hospital stay. From first consultation to when I stopped getting at home care, the whole process took 4 months, 1 one of those months includes hospital stay and at home care. I will most likely require two more surgeries in the next year (one being a major heart surgery) and I am pretty happy that I wont be 1) paying out of pocket or 2) living at the mercy of my insurance company who control my monthly rates. I realized last week that nothing makes me appreciate Canada (as a whole, not just health care) more than reading these political forums or the "Discussions" that happen on Foxnews.com / Cnn.com. I don't know why i even look at those... "Discussions"... but i surmise it has something to do with the same reason people cant look away from a train wreck..

09-10-2009, 09:23 AM	#43
bwield Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 444	hm Originally posted by graphicgr8s No. Liberal= Communist. Man... you Americans would just LOVE our NDP party... Even our "conservative" party is more liberal than Obama

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09-10-2009, 05:27 AM	#31
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by JHfwp Not that I think this site should allow political "discussions", but I thought it was an excellent speech. What follows is all that matters though. In total agreement.

09-10-2009, 05:38 AM	#32
slomojoe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 788	Originally posted by graphicgr8s Medicare has billions of dollars in fraud. They can't stop it. What you can't make up is the drivel the Obama spouts. Of course he has his new book coming out. How to destroy the USA in 2 years or less Once again, I give you facts from a linked source, which you can dispute with counterevidence if you wish, and you reply with silly insults. The truth is, the private health insurance system is subject to fraud as well, and that fraud amounts to billions as well. The extent of fraudulent costs associated with the entire US health care system is estimated between 3 and 10% of total health expenditures, and there is no major difference between Medicare/Medicaid and private health insurance, when adjusted for relative size and demographics. The only difference between fraud in the Medicare and Medicaid systems is that, unlike private health insurance, there is no known instance of fraud perpetrated by the providers against the consumers. So, if your arguments boils down to: "Fraud in Medicare demonstrates that the government cannot run health care", it's just plain nonsense.

09-10-2009, 05:41 AM	#33
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by Jasvox P.S. According the the CIA factbook...USA ranks 9th in the world for percentage of people living life in ill health (in need of treatment) at 10.8 percent of the population. Countries 1-8 are mostly third world countries. Sound like a successful system for the world's most advanced nation? Jas True, but I'm afraid this is a cultural problem (if talk of cultural problems makes sense) more than a medical one. The American way of life, rather than than the lack of medical care, is the leading cause of the poor state of health of US population. Stress, lack of communication, bad food, too much driving (and little biking, jogging, swimming...), and so on.

09-10-2009, 05:57 AM	#34
geauxpez Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,196	Originally posted by Damn Brit Ash, this is America, it won't work because there's no profit in it. It's as simple as that. That and the T-word. There is a sizeable part of the population here that would rather go without healthcare than pay a tax for it to be provided.

09-10-2009, 06:52 AM	#36
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	According to most fact checkers you're correct on the deficit issue. However... Originally posted by graphicgr8s He says it won't cover illegals. That's not entirely true. There is no wording in any bill that implicitly omits them. If it aint in writing.... Quote: OBAMA: "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." One congressman, South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson, shouted "You lie!" from his seat in the House chamber when Obama made this assertion. Wilson later apologized. THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't get tax subsidies to help them. Still, Republicans say there are not sufficient citizenship verification requirements to ensure illegal immigrants are excluded from benefits they are not due. The Associated Press: FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge

09-10-2009, 06:56 AM	#37
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by deadwolfbones According to most fact checkers you're correct on the deficit issue. However... The Associated Press: FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge Quote: OBAMA: "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period." THE FACTS: Though there's no final plan yet, the White House and congressional Democrats already have shown they're ready to skirt the no-new-deficits pledge. House Democrats offered a bill that the Congressional Budget Office said would add $220 billion to the deficit over 10 years. But Democrats and Obama administration officials claimed the bill actually was deficit-neutral. They said they simply didn't have to count $245 billion of it — the cost of adjusting Medicare reimbursement rates so physicians don't face big annual pay cuts. Their reasoning was that they already had decided to exempt this "doc fix" from congressional rules that require new programs to be paid for. In other words, it doesn't have to be paid for because they decided it doesn't have to be paid for. The administration also said that since Obama already had included the doctor payment in his 10-year budget proposal, it didn't have to be counted again. That aside, the long-term prognosis for costs of the health care legislation has not been good. CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf had this to say in July: "We do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount." And there are what 5 versions out there?

09-10-2009, 06:58 AM	#38
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	I guarantee you he's not going to sneak any language in there at the last minute to give free healthcare to filthy Mexican terrorists just to screw himself over. edit: why the edit to make it look like I was responding to a different issue?

09-10-2009, 07:04 AM	#39
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by deadwolfbones I guarantee you he's not going to sneak any language in there at the last minute to give free healthcare to filthy Mexican terrorists just to screw himself over. edit: why the edit to make it look like I was responding to a different issue? Wasn't done on purpose. But like most things if it isn't spelled out as to who is eligible it will be interpreted incorrectly. There needs to be wording that specifies who is eligible. I got thru 437 pages of the bill. Wonder how many the Obama read.

09-10-2009, 08:17 AM	#40
Jasvox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,107	The cost to date of the war in Iraq: $681.5 billion. If we can find the money to kill people abroad, we can find the money to help Americans. Jason source: Cost of War \| National Priorities Project

09-10-2009, 08:49 AM	#42
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by bwield The only thing that seems to be globally constant in Health care is that no one wants theirs changed. I consider myself fairly conservative (For a Canadian.... therefore I think that makes me communist no?) No. Liberal= Communist.

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09-10-2009, 09:23 AM	#44
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by bwield Man... you Americans would just LOVE our NDP party... Even our "conservative" party is more liberal than Obama Obama's a socialist/Marxist

09-10-2009, 09:30 AM	#45
melander Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sweden, Umea Posts: 876	Population in USA: 300 miljon (aprox) People that are left without health care: 10-15% Summary: 30-45 Miljon People. Procents can be dangerous. Look at the real number instead. 30-45 MILJON Living and breathing humans (well, maby not for too long) What are you affraid of anyway. That the people that cant get treatments will get healthy again and start working, taking your jobs. Because they sure as hell will work better than the people that dont have any compation left in them. Quote: Obama's a socialist/Marxist Oh my, what a surpice you will get if you someday go outside of usa