Anyone remember Operation Opera?

Last time it was the French selling a nuclear reactor, this time it is the Russians. Maybe the issue isn't with the buyer, but with with the seller?

Thank you
Russell

You mean the surprise attack on Iraq in 81?

Nope. Never heard of it.

[Ash]

A dictator no. A socialist yes. Biggest is redistribution of wealth.

How in the world do you get 67+ posts in one day? Speed typing. I mean the last few days you've been top poster. I mean what in the world is the secret to your success? Do you not have a life? I mean wife.

Not that you're counting....
I had no idea myself - guess it's just a slow few days at the office...
When I'm at home, the computer's rarely on!
Remember, too that I give one line comments to photo posters, not the 1,000 word rebuttals and essays you're accustomed to...

Yeah, so Obama's a socialist of sorts - so's Kevin Rudd and most of his predecessors in Australian politics. There is a LOT of taxpayer money funding indigenous health programmes, farming subsidies and unemplyment benefits. I can get peeved off at this kind of redistribution, but I won't - it is probably as good an effort as any to ensure everyone in the country has a fair go at picking themselves up and getting ahead when times are tough.

If that's socialism, then I'm for it - and that's why I'll stay in Australia...

Not that you're counting....
I had no idea myself - guess it's just a slow few days at the office...
When I'm at home, the computer's rarely on!
Remember, too that I give one line comments to photo posters...

Yeah, so Obama's a socialist of sorts - so's Kevin Rudd and most of his predecessors in Australian politics. There is a LOT of taxpayer money funding indigenous health programmes, farming subsidies and unemplyment benefits. I can get peeved off at this kind of redistribution, but I won't - it is probably as good an effort as any to ensure everyone in the country has a fair go at picking themselves up and getting ahead when times are tough.

If that's socialism, then I'm for it - and that's why I'll stay in Australia...

Actually he is a Marxist. So your ok with the government confiscating your hard earned money and redistributing it to others who don't want to work for it? You go along with "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"?
Sorry. I don't mind giving my hard earned money to someone. But I want it to be of my free will. I don't want it confiscated.

Unemployment here is paid for by the employer. No funds are deducted from the employee. Farm subsidies where we pay farmers not to grow is crap. I can see helping farmers in certain circumstances though.

[Ash]

Actually he is a Marxist. So your ok with the government confiscating your hard earned money and redistributing it to others who don't want to work for it? You go along with "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"?
Sorry. I don't mind giving my hard earned money to someone. But I want it to be of my free will. I don't want it confiscated.

Unemployment here is paid for by the employer. No funds are deducted from the employee. Farm subsidies where we pay farmers not to grow is crap. I can see helping farmers in certain circumstances though.

Yep, I agree with you in part, but realistically without some form of social security, Australian society would not be what it is now - and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be better, if that's what you're thinking.

I too get upset at times seeing many of the unemployed asking me to authorise their unemployment benefits, and indeed I have a social obligation to deny authorising such claims if they do not fit the criteria set by Medicare, but what happens is of course people who don't want to work find ways and means to get those ambiguous criteria met.

Australia is in the midst of a serious drought, and it's well accepted that farmers are asset-rich yet cash-poor and are at the mercy of the rains for adequate yields. They are quite crucial to this country's existence and are known to be amongst the hardest workers (and I can attest to that). I have no gripe with assisting them through financially-difficult times.

Indigenous Australian programmes are another issue altogether; one which has a long history and even longer set of opinions on how good/a waste of money they are...

Again though I'll say that yes, my taxes could probably be better spent (or better yet not taken away from me as much) but as long as I can provide my family with food on the table, clothes on their backs, a roof over their head, and a comfortable and joyous lifestyle, then I don't have too much to complain about.

---

Last edited by Ash; 09-29-2009 at 09:32 PM.

[falconeye]

Not in my reasoning for this position, is also the fact that a sort of deadline has been set for Iran to come clean, and that deadline is the month of December, or there about. This gives Iran a sense of some security from an attack for the next three months....a perfect situation for the Israelis, who are not bound by any such timetable.
[...]
As for Iraq, it was never about WMD or Iraq "hiding something". It was about the insanity of right wing wingnuts, you can read all about it most anywhere on earth, there are too many articles to mention, by those on both the left and right. Check it out, 80+% of America knows this and has for a long time, surely you don't still believe it was otherwise?

Rupert, thanks for sharing your rationale.

Actually, sometimes I disagree not to disagree but to provoque to think a position over. Everybody else in the thread took it for granted that indeed a war on Iran is imminent.

The strongest source for your feeling is this:
Israel has Iran in its sights -- latimes.com
by Micah Zenko - Council on Foreign Relations

The real danger is that Israel acts alone and that the action fails. However, the US president recently included military strikes into their options and Israel already said in turn they would prefer a common strategy.

Not that I think you will care but I want to point out that Iranians are Persians and not Arabs.

Actually, I do care. It is just that I only have personal experience with Arabic aggressive behaviour, not Persian one. Also, we miss a word for North Africa/Middle East countries or countries using arabic writing. "Islamic" would be even wronger.

Yep, I agree with you in part, but realistically without some form of social security, Australian society would not be what it is now - and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be better, if that's what you're thinking.

I too get upset at times seeing many of the unemployed asking me to authorise their unemployment benefits, and indeed I have a social obligation to deny authorising such claims if they do not fit the criteria set by Medicare, but what happens is of course people who don't want to work find ways and means to get those ambiguous criteria met.

Australia is in the midst of a serious drought, and it's well accepted that farmers are asset-rich yet cash-poor and are at the mercy of the rains for adequate yields. They are quite crucial to this country's existence and are known to be amongst the hardest workers (and I can attest to that). I have no gripe with assisting them through financially-difficult times.

Indigenous Australian programmes are another issue altogether; one which has a long history and even longer set of opinions on how good/a waste of money they are...

Again though I'll say that yes, my taxes could probably be better spent (or better yet not taken away from me as much) but as long as I can provide my family with food on the table, clothes on their backs, a roof over their head, and a comfortable and joyous lifestyle, then I don't have too much to complain about.

Although I am a staunch conservative I still believe that there are common needs that must be born by all Americans. I firmly believe we need to take care of our Veterans and our Seasoned Citizens and also those that, because of health reasons, can't take care of themselves. I just don't think we need such a large government takeover of most things since this usually leads to corruption, waste and fraud. And usually winds up not really doing what it is suppose to do. And costs just balloon and you can never get rid of it if it doesn't work. Look at the welfare program. It, like Medicare, is riddled with fraud. But no one wants to do a darn thing about it.

[Wheatfield]

I just don't think we need such a large government takeover of most things since this usually leads to corruption, waste and fraud. And usually winds up not really doing what it is suppose to do.

Hmmm, sounds like Wall Street last year. Face it, corruption and fraud aren't limited to your governments.
It might just be a lifestyle decision.

[thazooo]

From a completely different perspective.....

Since the USA is committed to keeping WMD out of the Middle East; why hasn't
Israel been subjected to the same terms on Nukes as Iraq and Iran ? Where's the call for UN inspectors to go though out Palestine and find Israeli WMD ? It would seem that to keep the peace, the rules would be applied equally.

Far as I'm concerned the USA allied with the wrong group of people.

[Ash]

From a completely different perspective.....

Since the USA is committed to keeping WMD out of the Middle East; why hasn't
Israel been subjected to the same terms on Nukes as Iraq and Iran ? Where's the call for UN inspectors to go though out Palestine and find Israeli WMD ? It would seem that to keep the peace, the rules would be applied equally.

Far as I'm concerned the USA allied with the wrong group of people.

Far too much personal and political interest in Israel on the part of the US - that, I'm afraid, is unlikely to change given the sociodemographic makeup of the US...

Not many Arabs/Islamists, or whatever your flavour of terminology, on the other hand are in positions of power or influence in the US...

[Ash]

Although I am a staunch conservative I still believe that there are common needs that must be born by all Americans. I firmly believe we need to take care of our Veterans and our Seasoned Citizens and also those that, because of health reasons, can't take care of themselves. I just don't think we need such a large government takeover of most things since this usually leads to corruption, waste and fraud. And usually winds up not really doing what it is suppose to do. And costs just balloon and you can never get rid of it if it doesn't work. Look at the welfare program. It, like Medicare, is riddled with fraud. But no one wants to do a darn thing about it.

Indeed fraud isn't limited to govt, and there is more 'waste' than we could care to imagine in capitalist economies. Things in govt COULD be run more cost-effectively and thus more efficiently, although in any large system there is bound to be deficiencies/inadequacies that would probably cost just as much to fix than to just leave be.

Medicare fraud is probably very common in Australia too (sorry I have no stats on hand to quote), but the enforcement that is available is making a significant difference in limiting this fraud. Any more policing of Medicare claims than is currently done would probably yield a lot less in revenue recovery. But something IS being done about it - at least in Australia. But remember that with any bureaucratic system, there is a great deal of cost a capitalist or business-minded person would think is simply a waste of resources - this is the reality of govt.

[Ash]

Actually, I do care. It is just that I only have personal experience with Arabic aggressive behaviour, not Persian one. Also, we miss a word for North Africa/Middle East countries or countries using arabic writing. "Islamic" would be even wronger.

Yeah, Falk, I gathered that, so I never responded to your early reference of 'Arab aggression' which is a stereotype which doesn't hold for many Arabs, including muslim ones. I being brought up muslim know all too well what people refer to as 'aggressive behaviour' - it's all quite relative.

With respect to other advanced societies, Arabs are more passionate, verbally, in body language and sometimes in action, and this can easily be misunderstood as aggression or anger. I have many personal experiences where anger had taken place, but this is far from being foreign in non-Arab families...

Nevertheless be weary that many Arabs are not muslim and most are peaceful people. The extent of many Westerners' experience of Arabs are limited to ones who hit the headlines for their extremism/fundamentalism, who are by far the minority.

[Blue]

From a completely different perspective.....

Since the USA is committed to keeping WMD out of the Middle East; why hasn't
Israel been subjected to the same terms on Nukes as Iraq and Iran ? Where's the call for UN inspectors to go though out Palestine and find Israeli WMD ? It would seem that to keep the peace, the rules would be applied equally.

Far as I'm concerned the USA allied with the wrong group of people.

When is the last time Israel attacked a U.S. embassy, bombed a building in the U.S. or bombed a ship or high-jacked a plane?

Plus, the 1967 and 1973 wars were a result of several countries flat out invading Israel and got their asses handed to them in their turbans. Several of those countries have goals of Israel being wiped out and several have pretended they don't exist.

Hmmm, sounds like Wall Street last year. Face it, corruption and fraud aren't limited to your governments.
It might just be a lifestyle decision.

On "Wall Street" you have a choice. Buy, or don't buy the product. In government you have no choice. They confiscate your money and there ain't a thing you can do about it.

[Ratmagiclady]

Yeah, so Obama's a socialist of sorts - so's Kevin Rudd and most of his predecessors in Australian politics. There is a LOT of taxpayer money funding indigenous health programmes, farming subsidies and unemplyment benefits. I can get peeved off at this kind of redistribution, but I won't - it is probably as good an effort as any to ensure everyone in the country has a fair go at picking themselves up and getting ahead when times are tough.

If that's socialism, then I'm for it - and that's why I'll stay in Australia...

Hee. One thing you have to understand about Republican claims there's 'redistribution of wealth' and such in play here is that actually the recent decade in America particularly has been the biggest redistribution of wealth in American history... to the very richest in society *from* everyone else.

No one's talking about seizing their assets, but we're under no obligation to let them keep the whole system, government included, tilted to continue this process.

[Ratmagiclady]

Plus, the 1967 and 1973 wars were a result of several countries flat out invading Israel and got their asses handed to them in their turbans. Several of those countries have goals of Israel being wiped out and several have pretended they don't exist.

*sigh.* It's *Sikhs* that wear turbans.