Why so socialist?

er1kksen · 09-30-2009, 04:13 PM

I'm not necessarily even talking about bribes or anything, or a general disrespect for authority: If I wanted to be president, I honestly believe that I would have no choice but to make promises to the big financial interests to get there, and I would have no choice but to represent those financial interests if I wanted to stay in office. The President is not a person who controls the direction of our nation's government (and technically, he was never supposed to be, but he wasn't supposed to be a coporate tool either). It's not some sort of shadow-government conspiracy or anything, it's just the simple fact that our society suscribes to a consumer culture that makes us essentially dependant on the people with the money. The people with the money, as a result, are the people in charge, not necessarily the people we voted for. If we're lucky, as voters, the people we voted for are doing their best to represent our interests in the face of that power equation. Sadly, human nature being what it is, I suspect many of them are not (especially considering that many of them had to come by large sums of money from those financial powers in order to get to were they are in the first place).

**Ash** · 09-30-2009, 04:19 PM

So this being accepted, we also should appreciate that in the grey areas of democracy, the wealthier nations of the world are further away from the ideal of democracy?

er1kksen · 09-30-2009, 05:07 PM

In other wealthy nations? I don't know. In the U.S? I'd say yes. With a system so large, you can only get so close to the democratic ideal anyways, and with education so lacking for so many, and such a prevalent perception by the US public that we're just supposed to elect officials and sit back and let them run things for us, we're pretty far from having a functional democracy. Achieving a functional democracy would require a fundamental shift in our culture. With the way "the democratic ideal" gets batted about here in the US, I almost start to think of "democracy" as a dirty word. It sees a lot of abuse.

**Ash** · 09-30-2009, 05:16 PM

Just like the word 'gay'...

Education is a big part of democracy, and there is a certain amount of responsibility for the citizens to be adequately informed to make the right decision (for them) at the poll booth.

I think of the Western world and how far it may be from a functional democracy, but then realise at least it is *functioning*. There's enough hard work and integrity to keep society from spiraling downwards as in the Third World, which is just thwart with overt (not just covert) corruption on a massive and unapologetic scale and a lack of work ethic...

er1kksen · 09-30-2009, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Ash

Education is a big part of democracy, and there is a certain amount of responsibility for the citizens to be adequately informed to make the right decision (for them) at the poll booth.

Absolutely. Education (including self-education) and the flow of information is the foundation of a truly free society. Responsibility is another major part of that; once you start delegating decision-making powers to government or other corporations, you lose the right (in my opinion) to complain when the wrong decisions are made.

At least as far as the education (particularly self-education) aspect of all of this is concerned, the internet is what gives me hope for the future.

pingflood · 09-30-2009, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by er1kksen

and such a prevalent perception by the US public that we're just supposed to elect officials and sit back and let them run things for us, we're pretty far from having a functional democracy.

No kidding. People basically want to elect the person who'll give them the most shit and the least responsibility.

graphicgr8s · 09-30-2009, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by er1kksen

Absolutely. Education (including self-education) and the flow of information is the foundation of a truly free society. Responsibility is another major part of that; once you start delegating decision-making powers to government or other corporations, you lose the right (in my opinion) to complain when the wrong decisions are made.

At least as far as the education (particularly self-education) aspect of all of this is concerned, the internet is what gives me hope for the future.

Why does the internet give you hope?

**Ash** · 09-30-2009, 08:07 PM

I'm guessing he means more people will be using the internet and therefore have access to more information (?sources) to educate themselves...

pingflood · 09-30-2009, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Ash

I'm guessing he means more people will be using the internet and therefore have access to more information (?sources) to educate themselves...

Or he was referring to Drudge.

shooz · 09-30-2009, 08:16 PM

As to OP.
Because it's so much better than antisocial.

graphicgr8s · 09-30-2009, 08:17 PM

Don't you mean disinformation? How many people are really able to discern the truth. I ean look at Wikopedia. Anyone can post anything they want there. You don't even have to know what you're talking about there's no fact checking. The internet can be the wrst place to get information at times.

**Ash** · 09-30-2009, 08:21 PM

But a lot of reliable information can be found on the internet too, if one knows where to look for it...

pingflood · 09-30-2009, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Don't you mean disinformation? How many people are really able to discern the truth. I ean look at Wikopedia. Anyone can post anything they want there. You don't even have to know what you're talking about there's no fact checking. The internet can be the wrst place to get information at times.

Wasn't there a fairly recent study done which showed that Wikipedia while being clearly wrong in places was on average more than or as accurate as a traditional encyclopedia?

graphicgr8s · 09-30-2009, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by pingflood

Wasn't there a fairly recent study done which showed that Wikipedia while being clearly wrong in places was on average more than or as accurate as a traditional encyclopedia?

Well "on average" means that 1/2 the time the aren't as accurate. 1/2 the time they are. So how do you know if you got the right half?

graphicgr8s · 09-30-2009, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Ash

But a lot of reliable information can be found on the internet too, if one knows where to look for it...

But how many people find the info and look no further. Meanwhile they wind up with the unreliable info and don't even know it. Trouble is there is little to no verification on the net.

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09-30-2009, 04:13 PM	#16
er1kksen Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Forestville, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,801	I'm not necessarily even talking about bribes or anything, or a general disrespect for authority: If I wanted to be president, I honestly believe that I would have no choice but to make promises to the big financial interests to get there, and I would have no choice but to represent those financial interests if I wanted to stay in office. The President is not a person who controls the direction of our nation's government (and technically, he was never supposed to be, but he wasn't supposed to be a coporate tool either). It's not some sort of shadow-government conspiracy or anything, it's just the simple fact that our society suscribes to a consumer culture that makes us essentially dependant on the people with the money. The people with the money, as a result, are the people in charge, not necessarily the people we voted for. If we're lucky, as voters, the people we voted for are doing their best to represent our interests in the face of that power equation. Sadly, human nature being what it is, I suspect many of them are not (especially considering that many of them had to come by large sums of money from those financial powers in order to get to were they are in the first place).

09-30-2009, 04:19 PM	#17
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	So this being accepted, we also should appreciate that in the grey areas of democracy, the wealthier nations of the world are further away from the ideal of democracy?

09-30-2009, 05:07 PM	#18
er1kksen Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Forestville, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,801	In other wealthy nations? I don't know. In the U.S? I'd say yes. With a system so large, you can only get so close to the democratic ideal anyways, and with education so lacking for so many, and such a prevalent perception by the US public that we're just supposed to elect officials and sit back and let them run things for us, we're pretty far from having a functional democracy. Achieving a functional democracy would require a fundamental shift in our culture. With the way "the democratic ideal" gets batted about here in the US, I almost start to think of "democracy" as a dirty word. It sees a lot of abuse.

09-30-2009, 05:16 PM	#19
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Just like the word 'gay'... Education is a big part of democracy, and there is a certain amount of responsibility for the citizens to be adequately informed to make the right decision (for them) at the poll booth. I think of the Western world and how far it may be from a functional democracy, but then realise at least it is functioning. There's enough hard work and integrity to keep society from spiraling downwards as in the Third World, which is just thwart with overt (not just covert) corruption on a massive and unapologetic scale and a lack of work ethic...

09-30-2009, 06:12 PM	#20
er1kksen Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Forestville, NY Photos: Albums Posts: 1,801	Originally posted by Ash Education is a big part of democracy, and there is a certain amount of responsibility for the citizens to be adequately informed to make the right decision (for them) at the poll booth. Absolutely. Education (including self-education) and the flow of information is the foundation of a truly free society. Responsibility is another major part of that; once you start delegating decision-making powers to government or other corporations, you lose the right (in my opinion) to complain when the wrong decisions are made. At least as far as the education (particularly self-education) aspect of all of this is concerned, the internet is what gives me hope for the future.

09-30-2009, 07:47 PM	#21
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Originally posted by er1kksen and such a prevalent perception by the US public that we're just supposed to elect officials and sit back and let them run things for us, we're pretty far from having a functional democracy. No kidding. People basically want to elect the person who'll give them the most shit and the least responsibility.

09-30-2009, 07:52 PM	#22
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by er1kksen Absolutely. Education (including self-education) and the flow of information is the foundation of a truly free society. Responsibility is another major part of that; once you start delegating decision-making powers to government or other corporations, you lose the right (in my opinion) to complain when the wrong decisions are made. At least as far as the education (particularly self-education) aspect of all of this is concerned, the internet is what gives me hope for the future. Why does the internet give you hope?

09-30-2009, 08:07 PM	#23
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	I'm guessing he means more people will be using the internet and therefore have access to more information (?sources) to educate themselves...

09-30-2009, 08:09 PM	#24
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Originally posted by Ash I'm guessing he means more people will be using the internet and therefore have access to more information (?sources) to educate themselves... Or he was referring to Drudge.

09-30-2009, 08:16 PM	#25
shooz Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Detroit Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,491	As to OP. Because it's so much better than antisocial.

09-30-2009, 08:17 PM	#26
graphicgr8s Guest	Don't you mean disinformation? How many people are really able to discern the truth. I ean look at Wikopedia. Anyone can post anything they want there. You don't even have to know what you're talking about there's no fact checking. The internet can be the wrst place to get information at times.

09-30-2009, 08:21 PM	#27
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	But a lot of reliable information can be found on the internet too, if one knows where to look for it...

09-30-2009, 08:24 PM	#28
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Originally posted by graphicgr8s Don't you mean disinformation? How many people are really able to discern the truth. I ean look at Wikopedia. Anyone can post anything they want there. You don't even have to know what you're talking about there's no fact checking. The internet can be the wrst place to get information at times. Wasn't there a fairly recent study done which showed that Wikipedia while being clearly wrong in places was on average more than or as accurate as a traditional encyclopedia?

09-30-2009, 08:32 PM	#29
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by pingflood Wasn't there a fairly recent study done which showed that Wikipedia while being clearly wrong in places was on average more than or as accurate as a traditional encyclopedia? Well "on average" means that 1/2 the time the aren't as accurate. 1/2 the time they are. So how do you know if you got the right half?

09-30-2009, 08:34 PM	#30
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by Ash But a lot of reliable information can be found on the internet too, if one knows where to look for it... But how many people find the info and look no further. Meanwhile they wind up with the unreliable info and don't even know it. Trouble is there is little to no verification on the net.