That is very very true.... but nothing in Obama's plan to lengthen the school day or year bears any positive impact on that. In fact, now that I think about it, a longer school day and longer school year may harm parental interaction with kids. More time in school is just more time being raised by surrogates. A balance is what is required.

OH, and IQ is for the most part, inate. Nothing school can do will raise or lower it one whit. Of course, some schools have been known to almost ruin certain geniuses (Albert Einstein almost flunked out as I recall), so you still have to watch em.

Mike

Mike I know full well just extending the year won't do a damn thing. Doing a lot of work with teachers I realize that in many cases they have their hands pretty tied. You can't do this, you can't do that. Teach so they can pass FCAT and on and on.

I also know you can't raise or lower IQ. I thought the part about sending him back would let on I was joking. I will have him tested however. I know from experience that if his should turn out high he will need to be kept actively learning or he will get bored and cause trouble. And if there were any way I could afford to I would homeschool him.

[slomojoe]

Come on guys, it's clearly a fake. Do you really think any self-respecting high school student would take time away from videogames, TV and hanging out at the mall to write a letter to a friggin' newspaper? How naive are you? I suspect most high school students don't even know what a newspaper actually is, let alone read one.

[stewart_photo]

Stewart, I think you're taking that snippet a little too personally. (snip)

Didn't take anything personally and no bitterness in what I wrote either (the wife is making good money). In fact, the wife helped to write that message (to ensure accuracy regarding the requirements and similar), with both of us snickering over one or two of the things written.

Instead, because it once (not that long ago) related to us, we've studied the situation carefully, based on the teaching requirements we're familiar with, the many teachers we've met, what we've heard from those teachers, what we've seen in the classroom, the common myths we've heard, what we've seen regarding children, what we've seen in our society, what we've seen in schools elsewhere (overseas), what we've seen regarding children elsewhere, what we've seen in societies elsewhere, and so on. Our basic conclusions are presented in a nutshell within that message - low teacher pay, negative influences in our society, and so on.

We have to be realistic here. We live in an extremely complex, technologically advanced, world and the ever growing knowledge needed for that cannot really be taught in a few short hours a day for a few months each year. The idea of extending the school year is nothing new (Obama didn't invent it). Some farsighted teachers have been promoting the idea for decades (first heard of it in the 60's while I was in school and it was not a new idea even then). However, while I agree with extending the school year, that will only have limited success if the other factors mentioned continue.

By the way, it's certainly true not all teachers know everything, even about the subject being taught. Therefore, I'm not surprised a history teacher might not be that familiar with geography or a math teacher might consult another math teacher to ensure accuracy. However, in those teachers' defense, few people, in any field, truly know everything about their profession and I'm quite certain those teachers knew far more than most of the students in their classrooms - even if some students thought otherwise.

stewart

[Ratmagiclady]

Mike I know full well just extending the year won't do a damn thing. Doing a lot of work with teachers I realize that in many cases they have their hands pretty tied. You can't do this, you can't do that. Teach so they can pass FCAT and on and on.

I also know you can't raise or lower IQ. I thought the part about sending him back would let on I was joking. I will have him tested however. I know from experience that if his should turn out high he will need to be kept actively learning or he will get bored and cause trouble. And if there were any way I could afford to I would homeschool him.

A little goes a long way, as far as 'home schooling' goes. Most people do it for ideological reasons, as in, trying to *stop* them learning something the parent doesn't approve of. But if they're once in a while learning a bit of anything at home, it really helps.

Stuff you may know, like gardening. Or get a PBS doc you can learn about together. History's great. Most schools try to teach history like a hard science of memorizing dates and names for no apparent reason.... Pick a story. Local history, even, maybe. If there's a historical society in your town, there's probably some folks there who'd be overjoyed to see some interest. Start with your town if it existed long, and put it all in context.

[MRRiley]

Mike I know full well just extending the year won't do a damn thing. Doing a lot of work with teachers I realize that in many cases they have their hands pretty tied. You can't do this, you can't do that. Teach so they can pass FCAT and on and on.

I also know you can't raise or lower IQ. I thought the part about sending him back would let on I was joking. I will have him tested however. I know from experience that if his should turn out high he will need to be kept actively learning or he will get bored and cause trouble. And if there were any way I could afford to I would homeschool him.

Very true... and its all tied to that education budgets so we gotta get those numbers up for passing those tests. It's like a snake eating it's own tail. Eventually it kills itself trying to stay alive.

I knew you were kidding about the IQ part but neglected to add a The important thing is to challenge IV beyond what the school system will with facts and figures. Knowing facts and figures is nice, but being able to think through a problem and develop a solution will unlock any challenge. Critical thinking and creative problem solving are the key to a true education.

A little goes a long way, as far as 'home schooling' goes. Most people do it for ideological reasons, as in, trying to *stop* them learning something the parent doesn't approve of. But if they're once in a while learning a bit of anything at home, it really helps.

Stuff you may know, like gardening. Or get a PBS doc you can learn about together. History's great. Most schools try to teach history like a hard science of memorizing dates and names for no apparent reason.... Pick a story. Local history, even, maybe. If there's a historical society in your town, there's probably some folks there who'd be overjoyed to see some interest. Start with your town if it existed long, and put it all in context.

RML, I am actually a little torn on the home school- public school deal. There are things I think I can teach him way better than a school can. But the same is true the other way. When I was in school I got bored super quick. I was always ahead of the class so more often than not I either fell asleep or got into trouble. There were things however that I really was terrible with. Like math. I never learned my multiplication tables for instance but found workarounds. Teachers didn't teach me the workarounds. They thought I was stupid in math. Once I found the secret though I proved them wrong and wound up taking some of the hardest math classes in school just to keep my mind occupied. That's just one thing I think would be noticed a lot faster in a home school situation.

[MRRiley]

History's great. Most schools try to teach history like a hard science of memorizing dates and names for no apparent reason.

Dates and names are the primary reason I HATED history in high school. Once I learned to study history from the perspective of what happened in what order and the relationships between events, places and people I came to love it. This is what makes history come alive yet it is almost impossible to enact in school. Why? Because you can't (easily) write multiple choice questions for it.

---

Last edited by MRRiley; 10-01-2009 at 06:42 PM. Reason: damned typos

Very true... and its all tied to that education budgets so we gotta get those numbers up for passing those tests. It's like a snake eating it's own tail. Eventually it kills itself trying to stay alive.

I knew you were kidding about the IQ part but neglected to add a The important thing is to challenge IV beyond what the school system will with facts and figures. Knowing facts and figures is nice, but being able to think through a problem and develop a solution will unlock any challenge. Critical thinking and creative problem solving are the key to a true education.

Yeah he'll need to be kept occupied I hope. I hope he has as much if not more of a zeal for learning as Dad did. Although I am a printer by trade I am into many things, mostly sciences. Tropical fish taught me about water and chemistry when young, as did photography and making my own experimental developers back in the 70's. Even now if I had the time and money I would be back in school. No idea what I would study though. Maybe photography just to get a different perspective.
I really think though now that I am older it will be so much fun relearning things through his eyes. Both of his parents, in school had IQ's over 140. sure wish I had met his dad.

Dates and names are the primary reason I HATED history in high school. Once I learned to study history from the persppective of what happened in what order and the relationships between events, places and people I came to love it. This is what makes history come alive yet it is almost impossible to enact in school. Why? Because you can't (easily) write multiple choice questions for it.

With multiple choice questions you have a 50-50 shot at being correct. (Go figure that out)

hey what the heck is going on in my thread? there's not a lot of bickering here. did I really start this one?

[MRRiley]

With multiple choice questions you have a 50-50 shot at being correct. (Go figure that out)

hey what the heck is going on in my thread? there's not a lot of bickering here. did I really start this one?

Well you either select the correct answer or you don't. So 50-50 is about right... 67% of mathmaticians would agree.

[Ratmagiclady]

RML, I am actually a little torn on the home school- public school deal. There are things I think I can teach him way better than a school can."

Try just not thinking 'all or nothing' on this. Teach what you know.


The stuff that's 'boring' in school is usually where they've stripped things down to the bare bones.

Check out the James Burke 'Connections' series, there were a few. Also 'The Day The Universe Changed,' similar concept.


It's kind of about the history of technology, but it puts history in context of how things get learned. It's also pretty entertaining. Puts stuff together, so that when your kid is in school, it's not just about memorizing random facts for a test to keep the GOP from cutting teacher salaries.

When I was in first grade, I was bored, too. I taught the 'write-offs' how to read and they'd send me to the library to read about alternative energy and whatever. Teachers more concerned with discipline and Christianity basically tried to beat the knowledge of negative numbers out of me cause it questioned their authority at the time. They were spending three years teaching kids it was impossible to subtract a larger number from another, then wondering why it was hard to unlearn that. (That. Was. Surreal.)

Taught me how anti-intellectualism works pretty quick, though.

" But the same is true the other way. When I was in school I got bored super quick. I was always ahead of the class so more often than not I either fell asleep or got into trouble. There were things however that I really was terrible with. Like math. I never learned my multiplication tables for instance but found workarounds. Teachers didn't teach me the workarounds. They thought I was stupid in math. Once I found the secret though I proved them wrong and wound up taking some of the hardest math classes in school just to keep my mind occupied. That's just one thing I think would be noticed a lot faster in a home school situation.

A lot of public education has been reduced to glorified daycare.

Try not to think of it as all-or-nothing. Add what you can add. Kids aren't robots. Just find something you can add: they'll build on it.

It's what kids do.

[stewart_photo]

(snip) .. yet none of this is the fault of the teachers or the school system huh? Aren't they the ones who are teaching .. (snip)

You seem to be under the impression teachers have great choice in what they teach. In reality, in many school districts today, the school board, based on state and national standards (and wherever else they might get their ideas), provides fairly tight curriculum for the classroom, with teachers given little room to deviate from that. If they do deviate, the material skipped must be caught up elsewhere (which is difficult, so seldom done). They're often even told what book to use in the classroom and what they must teach from that book - which is where the impression of teachers only teaching from the book comes from (they are). Secondary school (high school) teachers are allowed a bit more classroom flexibility, but certainly not unlimited. Finally, the school board, not the teacher, defines classroom disciplinary standards and pass/fail standards.

Regardless, I never said school teachers are not culpable in any way, or there is no room for recreation or outside interests. Instead, I simply pointed out that teachers are already tested "4 grade levels above the grade they are teaching" as you suggested and that the education & knowledge of children should always be first and foremost. Afterwards, went on to state where I believe the problems rest.

stewart

Well you either select the correct answer or you don't. So 50-50 is about right... 67% of mathmaticians would agree.

Not exactly. If you know anything about the subject, whatever it may be, two answers will be obviously incorrect. That leaves just 2 answers that both look correct.

And let's be a little more accurate. It's 67.723008876%

[Ratmagiclady]

Also, Graphics. Seems a lot of the kids are generally buggin' ...from being over-controlled, over-stimulated, mostly taught that what they experience doesn't matter, ... then they get medicated for 'ADD.'

Nature. It's not necessarily about 'more control' ... More nature. You seem like you can do that.

Very true... and its all tied to that education budgets so we gotta get those numbers up for passing those tests. It's like a snake eating it's own tail. Eventually it kills itself trying to stay alive.

I knew you were kidding about the IQ part but neglected to add a The important thing is to challenge IV beyond what the school system will with facts and figures. Knowing facts and figures is nice, but being able to think through a problem and develop a solution will unlock any challenge. Critical thinking and creative problem solving are the key to a true education.

Now if he turns out liberal he goes back that's for sure.