[Parallax]

................Many people that drive Hummers and Discovery SUV don't take them down trails all that much anyway....................

I would bet that a very large majority never see a dirt road, much less an off road trail.
They serve exactly the same 2 purposes as every vehicle I have ever owned:
1. Get people and/or things from here to there.
2. Provide the person who earned the money to pay for it the enjoyment of owning it.
What else does a vehicle need to do?

[Ratmagiclady]

Movements like ELF & ALF etc. target the Hummer as their symbol of the evils of anything they consider an SUV. The Wrangler falls into this category by default even though many states officially categorize vehicles differently. Some vehicles were around before the S.U.V. term was designated by the Feds for tax purposes. They were the Jeep, Bronco, Scout, Blazer, Carryall etc. and were generally called utility vehicles. No one said "Wranglers" were un-American. What I said was that many people view them in nearly the same light as the Hummer.

Due to the current situation in Detroit, they are an endangered species.

As far as shooting out of, there are a couple of places for a semi-permanent camera mount with the top down but generally find it no easier to handle the camera than my old Bronco or Scrambler. Its next to impossible to stand up on the driverside front seat with the top down so generally photographing is done through the window anyway even then a lot of the time the best angle ends up through the windshield which may impact the IQ especially if the glass hasn't been cleaned lately.

Edit: I have been driving the JK Wrangler for 2 years and it has a comparable turn radius to my Bronco. The visibility out of both is great as well. It is a lot more comfortable as a daily driver etc and can be parked in compact spots and can turn on a dime. The CJ and YJ are great but would sit in the driveway a lot compared to the JK.

ELF has a lot less influence than some right-wing pundits would say, they mostly succeeded in being portrayed as a bogeyman to ignore anyone who suggested using off-road vehicles exempted from passenger car safety and economy requirements due to being classed as 'light trucks' ...for bloated commuter vehicles... must be some kind of 'eco-terrorist.'

City-dwellers sure resented the things. In the city. They were big, expensive, polluting, fuel-price inflating, irresponsible status-symbols...totally in everyone's way... for a bunch of posers who never so much as park on grass... what they were *buying* was image and some fantasy they bought cause of a fantasy they'll be able to get out in the woods one day.

Doesn't help that a lot of conservative radicals deliberately use the things to thumb their noses at us and our future.

But don't buy the hype that being environmentalist means you're hating on anyone who actually *uses* the things for what they're made.

I wouldn't mind getting one of those big ol' Cherokees, myself, if we end up in the right sort of place. (OK, so I like old things. And the beadwork stripes.) I could probably keep one of those going a long time, though I think I'd need to retrofit some hubs I wouldn't have to get out of to try and switch in the snow. Equation for not-healthy for the RML's health conditions. Possibly I'm just getting too old for that much style.

Or one of the big Broncos from the 80's. I liked my F-150 but only need a certain amount of haulage these days. And enclosed would be good.

[Blue]

RML,

ELF did in fact commit eco-terrorism when I was living in SoCal. The burned Hummer dealerships in LA and burned buildings at Oregon State University etc and destroyed research plots at several campuses including UC-Berkley targeting plants they "thought" were gmo but weren't.

As far as trail closings to Jeeps etc., that is real. If you hung out on a Jeep or Bronco site or Pirate4x4, you would know that. I have spent the last 22 years protecting streams and balancing that with outdoor recreational use. Look up trail closing issues at Rubicon Trail, Tellico and Moab etc.

[geauxpez]

Hummer owners...some just have small man-parts and must compensate somehow. Like the Doctor that I once worked for.

I had a Wrangler -- it was my first new vehicle that I bought when I finished grad school and got a good job (working for th above-mentioned doctor). Within 6 months things astarted going wrong with it and the dealership gave me some line about having to pay for replacement parts because things could have been damaged or lost driving off-road. I had never driven it off road. Traded it in within a year.

My wife and I now each have Subarus. They do everything we need them to, are good on gas and have had 0 mechanical issues. Not to mention that Subaru is a very green-minded manufacturer.

[er1kksen]

As far as trail closings to Jeeps etc., that is real. If you hung out on a Jeep or Bronco site or Pirate4x4, you would know that. I have spent the last 22 years protecting streams and balancing that with outdoor recreational use. Look up trail closing issues at Rubicon Trail, Tellico and Moab etc.

I wouldn't mind if motorized vehicles were altogether banned from most trails. There have been far to many nice, peaceful hikes disturbed by the motor of whatever ATV, snowmobile, dirtbike or 4x4 decides to buzz over the next hill. And while sometimes they're ridden by people who show a real appreciation for the outdoors, all too often there are whole packs of ATVs weighed down by gigantic coolers and riders who could fit a whole extra cooler or too inside their body mass... and they sit around on their ATVs, don't even bother to turn them off and leave the quiet alone, muddy the water, churn the trails to muck, yell obnoxiously at hikers, and never even set foot on the ground (maybe they could work on that gut a bit if they actually walked somewhere...).

Who knows, maybe it's just my region where it's like this. I haven't had a chance to get out west much yet, but people seem to be a bit better spread-out out there than they are here in the northeast. I just have a hard time seeing the appeal of such things unless a person has some sort of handicap... take hiking or mountain biking, subtract the healthy exercise and the necessity to take more time (convenience isn't always a good thing), the contemplative nature of moving more slowly and observing things in-depth, and add a bunch of obnoxious noise and smelly exhaust. Why not just go sit by the highway all day? There are some scenic spots on highways, too. That seems to be the only remaining appeal to motorized off-road recreation, at least for the types I usually run into.

[MoparFreak69]

I can sure with absolute certainty that the "ultimate off-roader" Hummer that the military uses is an absolute pile of crap on or off road. That wonderful engine known as the Chevy 6.2 diesel is as gutless as they come. When you could manage to get the tires moving it did not take much to slow them down.

Unfortunately the idiots have ruined the off-roading scene for everyone else just like everything in this world now. Nothing gets me more mad than seeing a group of "kids" with a bunch of 4x4s running around tearing the landscape to hell tossing empty beer cans out the window. How can anyone find joy in that? I loved my wrangler to death and although I did not have as much opportunity to wheel as I would have liked, I always stuck to previously made trails and maintain as little wheelspin as possible. You know, like REAL WHEELERS do! Tirespin does not make you cool, getting your truck up the hill without breaking or killing anything or anyone is what makes you cool.

*holds up a beer* Here's to all the Mopar's that got away

[Ratmagiclady]

RML,

ELF did in fact commit eco-terrorism when I was living in SoCal. The burned Hummer dealerships in LA and burned buildings at Oregon State University etc and destroyed research plots at several campuses including UC-Berkley targeting plants they "thought" were gmo but weren't.

I didn't say that they didn't. (Nor am I saying they *did,* for that matter. A lot of stuff people crow about sounds much more like a handy way for corporations to collect insurance and blame 'environmentalism.')

I'm just saying they neither invented nor are connected to some of the general disdain out there for these bloated SUVs. They're past 'fringe' and not even worth bringing up in terms of whether or not these Hummers often even make sense. They're usually just 'conspicuous consumption' and image.

Mind you, if I *were* to spend that much on a vehicle that uses that much gas, you'd *better* be able to pull out treestumps with it, I think.

As far as trail closings to Jeeps etc., that is real. If you hung out on a Jeep or Bronco site or Pirate4x4, you would know that. I have spent the last 22 years protecting streams and balancing that with outdoor recreational use. Look up trail closing issues at Rubicon Trail, Tellico and Moab etc.

You're apparently accusing me of attitudes I'm not voicing here.

Though most of the trail closings (or people trying to) is cause people out there will destroy entire areas of hillsides to hotfoot around on dirtbikes and such.

This is one of those places where maybe the all-or-nothing tug-of war of politics is preventing people from really getting together and communicating. There are mutual objectives here which are not a zero-sum situation. If you're an offroader, you don't want people screwing up your trails, either, right?

And, hear, hear, Moparfreak.

I was probably one of the freakiest Mopar people out there at one point. Was always interestesting explaining to a few uninformed how 'two exhaust pipes' doesn't mean 'twice as much pollution.' My car burned clean. Partly through creative use of some hot rod parts.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 10-11-2009 at 02:06 PM.

[Sailor]

Sure hope nobody who owns a Hummer needs to use their warranty for any reason. Hummer now belongs to Sichuan Tengzhong Heavy Industrial Machinery Corp who bought not only the name but the dealer rights as well. Wish I had spent $40-50K on a vehicle that was worthless to begin with but now is even more so!

Sorry, just had to share the news.

I have no interest in Hummers as vehicles, but I doubt that anyone need worry about warranty work over the medium term; assuming government (U.S. and China) approval of the sale, the company will remain in business with production continuing at in LA for the next two or three years. Business Week (on line) has a good overview of the situation.

Plan: Hummer will continue in Shreveport, La. - BusinessWeek

Perhaps more interesting is the latest goings on with Chrysler. Marchionne canned a couple of execs and pulled out Dodge trucks as a separate division (or "brand" in the new vernacular). Since the Ram trucks and Jeep are Chrysler's only currently valuable franchises, people are reading all kinds of both positive and foreboding things into all of this, but I'm betting Marchionne will put together a viable company in the end. I'm looking forward seeing how this Fiat-Chrysler marriage eventuates.

Jer

[MoparFreak69]

And, hear, hear, Moparfreak.

I was probably one of the freakiest Mopar people out there at one point. Was always interestesting explaining to a few uninformed how 'two exhaust pipes' doesn't mean 'twice as much pollution.' My car burned clean. Partly through creative use of some hot rod parts.

Yeah its hard to explain to some that just because you have the power available, it doesnt mean you use it all the time. My current truck is a 98 Ram with a Cummins. I have a boost gauge that tells me it produces over 30PSI of boost when im hauling heavy up a hill. Normal driving, I never see over 15PSI of boost because I am just not using that much power. My big "filthy diesel" truck got me over 20MPG on a trip down to Reno this weekend to pick up a snow plow. Not bad considering to truck I traded away had a 360 in it that I saw 18MPG out of it once and that was with a lot of downhill driving.

[Rupert]

No dog in the fight here....if there is a fight? I just want to add once again, I love my Wrangler and although it is 12 years old, it is often mistaken for new, has never required more than fuel and tires, with regular oil changes. A battery once.....and it is about time for another.

BTW-I use Mobil One synthetic, have since it came out I think in around 1970? Use it in everything I own, even the lawnmower. Great oil! Many others are now offering synthetics, I assume they are also very good?

ELF has a lot less influence than some right-wing pundits would say, they mostly succeeded in being portrayed as a bogeyman to ignore anyone who suggested using off-road vehicles exempted from passenger car safety and economy requirements due to being classed as 'light trucks' ...for bloated commuter vehicles... must be some kind of 'eco-terrorist.'

City-dwellers sure resented the things. In the city. They were big, expensive, polluting, fuel-price inflating, irresponsible status-symbols...totally in everyone's way... for a bunch of posers who never so much as park on grass... what they were *buying* was image and some fantasy they bought cause of a fantasy they'll be able to get out in the woods one day.

Doesn't help that a lot of conservative radicals deliberately use the things to thumb their noses at us and our future.

But don't buy the hype that being environmentalist means you're hating on anyone who actually *uses* the things for what they're made.

I wouldn't mind getting one of those big ol' Cherokees, myself, if we end up in the right sort of place. (OK, so I like old things. And the beadwork stripes.) I could probably keep one of those going a long time, though I think I'd need to retrofit some hubs I wouldn't have to get out of to try and switch in the snow. Equation for not-healthy for the RML's health conditions. Possibly I'm just getting too old for that much style.

Or one of the big Broncos from the 80's. I liked my F-150 but only need a certain amount of haulage these days. And enclosed would be good.

And another post trashing conservatives. True to form.

[Gooshin]

which hummers are we talking about here

the military grade go anywhere behemoths or the suburbanian knockoff for the masses?

i would very much like to have a real hummer in the winter time....

which hummers are we talking about here

the military grade go anywhere behemoths or the suburbanian knockoff for the masses?

i would very much like to have a real hummer in the winter time....

The real military Hummers are not made by GM as far as I understand.

[jimH]

The real military Hummers are not made by GM as far as I understand.

The military HUMVees are made by AM General. here is a link.

Humvee still made in America

[MoparFreak69]

I was referring to the military version when I commented that they are not very off road worthy. The gm version is an even bigger POS if you ask me.