Photo Forums...The Gladiators

benjikan · 10-26-2009, 03:41 PM

Photo Forums...The Gladiators

I have had the opportunity of being present to witness the activities on several photo forums over the past few years and it has been a revelation to say the least.
A photo forum is a place where those interested in "Photography" gather to discuss topics related to photography.

Hmmm...Well let me be quite frank. For all intent and purpose (and this is a generality) the photo forums are more akin to fans cheering for their favorite teams. The frenzy is often similar to those watching a heated football match between two arch rivals, with a packed stadium of fans frothing at the mouth screaming, we will "Kill You". We are the Best!!!

The classic argument on most of the generalist photo forums is that of the "we are the best and your team sucks". Now what I find really curious, is that in many cases, I could quite easily take an identical image stick a different brand name on that image and those who are on the team of that image will find some very good reasons why that image is better than the identical image with a different brand name on it.

Why do I know this. Because I have done just that. Not only did I do this but I did so confronting a "Professional".

I had a hell of a good time. I presented certain images that were shot with one brand and called it another brand and visa versa. Well wouldn't you know it? I knew within five minutes where his bias was and how to play with it. Was one of the most amusing moments I have ever had with a "Professional". Now this pro was not really a photographer, but a professional critic of camera equipment. In fact this person reminded me of another professional that I was had the unpleasant experience of communicating with on another forum. Of course, I am no longer welcome on "That" forum. But, knowing what I know now, it wasn't really an issue as what that individual had on offer was utterly irrelevant.

It is also quite interesting to note, that those who are actually working at and loving their craft are the ones that rarely get in to heated arguments regarding the "Which Brand is Better" scenario. Why? Because they have other more important things to do. They are content with using their tool to express themselves and are content with the gear they have chosen. They also know a very special secret. Hanging a 30,000€ Blad around your neck will not guarantee that your images will look like a 30,000€ image.

I like photographers who talk about photography. I like artists who talk about their art. I like Chefs who speak passionately about cuisine and I love people who do what they love.

Ben

Benjamin Kanarek Blog Photo Forums…The Gladiators

Gooshin · 10-26-2009, 03:46 PM

you forget Ben, that there are two parts to almost anything in life.

The process, and the result.

I could very well dig a tunnel to China with a tablespoon. But i would have much greater success doing so with one of those fancy tunnel digging machines they use for subway development.

the end result would be identical, and indistinguishable, of course, but how many hours and days spent with a spoon, along with the stripped knuckles and sore knees..

Now if you were to say that, "time spent start to finish with X system is identical to Y system", in addition to the end result (being the photos), then you would have a much stronger argument on your hands.

**Ash** · 10-26-2009, 03:48 PM

That's something to like about this forum and Pentax....

I see it come true here and amongst the broader Pentaxian community.
Pentax = passion.
http://www.pentaxian.com/pdf/ads/PEN_1327_Pentaxian_Poster.pdf

**Ash** · 10-26-2009, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

you forget Ben, that there are two parts to almost anything in life.

The process, and the result.

I could very well dig a tunnel to China with a tablespoon. But i would have much greater success doing so with one of those fancy tunnel digging machines they use for subway development.

the end result would be identical, and indistinguishable, of course, but how many hours and days spent with a spoon, along with the stripped knuckles and sore knees..

Now if you were to say that, "time spent start to finish with X system is identical to Y system", in addition to the end result (being the photos), then you would have a much stronger argument on your hands.

For many styles of photography, the process of taking the photo between the K-7 and (let's say) a D3X would be no different. The lights, setting and subject matters so much more. Sports, fast action and perhaps weddings may be photographed with more success with the top guns, but the spoon vs earth analogy is certainly no comparison with this... I get your point though Goosh...

Last edited by Ash; 10-26-2009 at 04:03 PM.

Gooshin · 10-26-2009, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Ash

For many styles of photography, the process of taking the photo between the K-7 and a D3X would be no different. The lights, setting and subject matters so much more. Sports, fast action and perhaps weddings may be photographed with more success with the top guns, but the spoon vs earth analogy is certainly no comparison with this... I get your point though Goosh...

By "For many styles" do you mean 'studio'?

**Ash** · 10-26-2009, 04:07 PM

Ohh.... studio, landscape, night photography, portraiture, flowers, bugs, unicorns....

Not Registered · 10-27-2009, 09:15 AM

A photog with a 30000USD hass in the neck wont necesarily take 30000USD pictures. A photog who could have a 30000usd hass in the neck but shoot with a... let us say Pentax K10d/K20d means that he sold his ass (I mean art) for a 5000-10000USD-sponsorship and bragging rights on a hooligan forum.

Just saying

**dadipentak** · 10-27-2009, 09:30 AM

I'm sometimes reminded of the interminable and excruciatingly boring Ford/Chevy arguments I had no choice but overhear during my Army basic training. I always agreed with the negative points scored by each side

mithrandir · 10-27-2009, 09:43 AM

I chose the Pentax brand for its feature set at a price I could afford (being retired). Many brands have cameras that I would love to have if price were no object. That being said, I have a K10D and every time I think I have mastered it, it surprises me with a new potential that I had not noticed before. The weak link for most DSLR photography today is the photographer. Even the best of us have things to learn to make our craft better. Pentax makes good tools. We can learn to use them better and better if we are open minded. Often the source of inspiration is a photographer who uses a different brand of tool. If I can learn from another photographer, no matter what brand they prefer, I have successfully improved my craft. Here's to photography!

reeftool · 10-29-2009, 08:20 AM

I saw the Nikon ad with what's his face with the D90. Just buy one and you can take all these world class pictures too. So somebody buys one and his pics from the old P&S looked better. It's the camera's fault. You can really substitute any brand. Our cameras are auto everything, exposure, focusing, and they cost thousands so it has to be the cameras fault if a picture comes out bad. It is the way products are sold these days. Seeing a great photo and giving all the credit to the camera makes as much sense as some fat slob buying an article of clothing and blaming the clothes because he/she doesn't look like the model in the catalogue.

PeterAM · 10-29-2009, 10:18 AM

Unfortunately too many people have their identities tied up in the things that they own. Just look at what's going on with cellular phones these days. Once somebody wraps his psyche up in a possession, I guess he has to defend it at all costs or he is nothing.

Sad commentary on our times.

Jodokast96 · 10-29-2009, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by reeftool

I saw the Nikon ad with what's his face with the D90. Just buy one and you can take all these world class pictures too. So somebody buys one and his pics from the old P&S looked better. It's the camera's fault. You can really substitute any brand. Our cameras are auto everything, exposure, focusing, and they cost thousands so it has to be the cameras fault if a picture comes out bad. It is the way products are sold these days. Seeing a great photo and giving all the credit to the camera makes as much sense as some fat slob buying an article of clothing and blaming the clothes because he/she doesn't look like the model in the catalogue.

Death of the DSLR Camera - Gearlog

Seems somewhat appropriate.

Mike Cash · 10-31-2009, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by reeftool

I saw the Nikon ad with what's his face with the D90. Just buy one and you can take all these world class pictures too. So somebody buys one and his pics from the old P&S looked better. It's the camera's fault.

A man on television tried to tell me how white my shirts could be. But he can't be a man, because he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me.

I doubt that my photos would be any better or worse with a different camera brand. I shoot what I can afford, which happens to be Pentax and a bag of Takumars. With film I very happily shoot the cheapest brand of film I can find and run it through Yashica, Ricoh, Pentax, Kodak, etc. I doubt I could do a Hassy or Leica justice. Since I can't afford them anyway I don't waste any time pondering the matter.

ll_coffee_lP · 10-31-2009, 06:34 AM

To quote a line from "Fight Club".

"You're not your f*ckin' khakis".

c[_]

Wheatfield · 10-31-2009, 08:38 AM

It's all very well and good to say the camera doesn't matter until you are a working pro trying to compete with equipment that under performs.
As a studio photographer, I find that the camera performance plain and simply doesn't matter a whole lot once past a certain benchmark.
My *istD was a piss poor studio camera because of it's moribund write times (in fact it was a pretty awful camera for a lot of things because of this), but once I bought a K10, it was all good.
However, the K10 had metering issues and AF issues that made it less than stellar for some of the other photography that I do, especially when compared to what my partners in crime in the Nikon camp were using.
Ben, you are a decent studio photographer (although I don't really like your work), but you aren't pushing the performance envelope of your equipment.
However, the rabid fanboys, and the Pentax ones seem to be the most annoying, don't do much to garner anyone's respect, or garner respect for the brand.

10-26-2009, 03:41 PM	#1
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	Photo Forums...The Gladiators Photo Forums...The Gladiators I have had the opportunity of being present to witness the activities on several photo forums over the past few years and it has been a revelation to say the least. A photo forum is a place where those interested in "Photography" gather to discuss topics related to photography. Hmmm...Well let me be quite frank. For all intent and purpose (and this is a generality) the photo forums are more akin to fans cheering for their favorite teams. The frenzy is often similar to those watching a heated football match between two arch rivals, with a packed stadium of fans frothing at the mouth screaming, we will "Kill You". We are the Best!!! The classic argument on most of the generalist photo forums is that of the "we are the best and your team sucks". Now what I find really curious, is that in many cases, I could quite easily take an identical image stick a different brand name on that image and those who are on the team of that image will find some very good reasons why that image is better than the identical image with a different brand name on it. Why do I know this. Because I have done just that. Not only did I do this but I did so confronting a "Professional". I had a hell of a good time. I presented certain images that were shot with one brand and called it another brand and visa versa. Well wouldn't you know it? I knew within five minutes where his bias was and how to play with it. Was one of the most amusing moments I have ever had with a "Professional". Now this pro was not really a photographer, but a professional critic of camera equipment. In fact this person reminded me of another professional that I was had the unpleasant experience of communicating with on another forum. Of course, I am no longer welcome on "That" forum. But, knowing what I know now, it wasn't really an issue as what that individual had on offer was utterly irrelevant. It is also quite interesting to note, that those who are actually working at and loving their craft are the ones that rarely get in to heated arguments regarding the "Which Brand is Better" scenario. Why? Because they have other more important things to do. They are content with using their tool to express themselves and are content with the gear they have chosen. They also know a very special secret. Hanging a 30,000€ Blad around your neck will not guarantee that your images will look like a 30,000€ image. I like photographers who talk about photography. I like artists who talk about their art. I like Chefs who speak passionately about cuisine and I love people who do what they love. Ben Benjamin Kanarek Blog Photo Forums…The Gladiators

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
other recommended photo forums?	rpriedhorsky	General Talk	17	11-10-2009 03:42 PM
DSLR advice from one of those "other" photo forums (also, Pentax and low-light)	shuttervox	Pentax DSLR Discussion	38	02-25-2009 05:50 PM
Hello forums	Dooley	Welcomes and Introductions	1	01-26-2009 08:00 AM
New to Forums	jch55447	Welcomes and Introductions	1	01-25-2009 09:05 PM
RODO's Post at Steves Forums vs Pentax Forums Posting	benjikan	General Talk	1	03-27-2007 02:34 PM

10-26-2009, 03:46 PM	#2
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	you forget Ben, that there are two parts to almost anything in life. The process, and the result. I could very well dig a tunnel to China with a tablespoon. But i would have much greater success doing so with one of those fancy tunnel digging machines they use for subway development. the end result would be identical, and indistinguishable, of course, but how many hours and days spent with a spoon, along with the stripped knuckles and sore knees.. Now if you were to say that, "time spent start to finish with X system is identical to Y system", in addition to the end result (being the photos), then you would have a much stronger argument on your hands.

10-26-2009, 03:48 PM	#3
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	That's something to like about this forum and Pentax.... I see it come true here and amongst the broader Pentaxian community. Pentax = passion. http://www.pentaxian.com/pdf/ads/PEN_1327_Pentaxian_Poster.pdf

10-26-2009, 03:53 PM	#4
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by Gooshin you forget Ben, that there are two parts to almost anything in life. The process, and the result. I could very well dig a tunnel to China with a tablespoon. But i would have much greater success doing so with one of those fancy tunnel digging machines they use for subway development. the end result would be identical, and indistinguishable, of course, but how many hours and days spent with a spoon, along with the stripped knuckles and sore knees.. Now if you were to say that, "time spent start to finish with X system is identical to Y system", in addition to the end result (being the photos), then you would have a much stronger argument on your hands. For many styles of photography, the process of taking the photo between the K-7 and (let's say) a D3X would be no different. The lights, setting and subject matters so much more. Sports, fast action and perhaps weddings may be photographed with more success with the top guns, but the spoon vs earth analogy is certainly no comparison with this... I get your point though Goosh... Last edited by Ash; 10-26-2009 at 04:03 PM.

10-26-2009, 03:56 PM	#5
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by Ash For many styles of photography, the process of taking the photo between the K-7 and a D3X would be no different. The lights, setting and subject matters so much more. Sports, fast action and perhaps weddings may be photographed with more success with the top guns, but the spoon vs earth analogy is certainly no comparison with this... I get your point though Goosh... By "For many styles" do you mean 'studio'?

10-26-2009, 04:07 PM	#6
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Ohh.... studio, landscape, night photography, portraiture, flowers, bugs, unicorns....

10-27-2009, 09:15 AM	#7
Not Registered Guest	A photog with a 30000USD hass in the neck wont necesarily take 30000USD pictures. A photog who could have a 30000usd hass in the neck but shoot with a... let us say Pentax K10d/K20d means that he sold his ass (I mean art) for a 5000-10000USD-sponsorship and bragging rights on a hooligan forum. Just saying

10-27-2009, 09:30 AM	#8
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	I'm sometimes reminded of the interminable and excruciatingly boring Ford/Chevy arguments I had no choice but overhear during my Army basic training. I always agreed with the negative points scored by each side

10-27-2009, 09:43 AM	#9
mithrandir Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,895	I chose the Pentax brand for its feature set at a price I could afford (being retired). Many brands have cameras that I would love to have if price were no object. That being said, I have a K10D and every time I think I have mastered it, it surprises me with a new potential that I had not noticed before. The weak link for most DSLR photography today is the photographer. Even the best of us have things to learn to make our craft better. Pentax makes good tools. We can learn to use them better and better if we are open minded. Often the source of inspiration is a photographer who uses a different brand of tool. If I can learn from another photographer, no matter what brand they prefer, I have successfully improved my craft. Here's to photography!

10-29-2009, 08:20 AM	#10
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,553	I saw the Nikon ad with what's his face with the D90. Just buy one and you can take all these world class pictures too. So somebody buys one and his pics from the old P&S looked better. It's the camera's fault. You can really substitute any brand. Our cameras are auto everything, exposure, focusing, and they cost thousands so it has to be the cameras fault if a picture comes out bad. It is the way products are sold these days. Seeing a great photo and giving all the credit to the camera makes as much sense as some fat slob buying an article of clothing and blaming the clothes because he/she doesn't look like the model in the catalogue.

10-29-2009, 10:18 AM	#11
PeterAM Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Litchfield, CT Posts: 539	Unfortunately too many people have their identities tied up in the things that they own. Just look at what's going on with cellular phones these days. Once somebody wraps his psyche up in a possession, I guess he has to defend it at all costs or he is nothing. Sad commentary on our times.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-29-2009, 02:01 PM	#12
Jodokast96 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Erial, NJ USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,134	Originally posted by reeftool I saw the Nikon ad with what's his face with the D90. Just buy one and you can take all these world class pictures too. So somebody buys one and his pics from the old P&S looked better. It's the camera's fault. You can really substitute any brand. Our cameras are auto everything, exposure, focusing, and they cost thousands so it has to be the cameras fault if a picture comes out bad. It is the way products are sold these days. Seeing a great photo and giving all the credit to the camera makes as much sense as some fat slob buying an article of clothing and blaming the clothes because he/she doesn't look like the model in the catalogue. Death of the DSLR Camera - Gearlog Seems somewhat appropriate.

10-31-2009, 04:00 AM	#13
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	Originally posted by reeftool I saw the Nikon ad with what's his face with the D90. Just buy one and you can take all these world class pictures too. So somebody buys one and his pics from the old P&S looked better. It's the camera's fault. A man on television tried to tell me how white my shirts could be. But he can't be a man, because he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me. I doubt that my photos would be any better or worse with a different camera brand. I shoot what I can afford, which happens to be Pentax and a bag of Takumars. With film I very happily shoot the cheapest brand of film I can find and run it through Yashica, Ricoh, Pentax, Kodak, etc. I doubt I could do a Hassy or Leica justice. Since I can't afford them anyway I don't waste any time pondering the matter.

10-31-2009, 06:34 AM	#14
ll_coffee_lP Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,972	To quote a line from "Fight Club". "You're not your f*ckin' khakis". c[_]

10-31-2009, 08:38 AM	#15
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,975	It's all very well and good to say the camera doesn't matter until you are a working pro trying to compete with equipment that under performs. As a studio photographer, I find that the camera performance plain and simply doesn't matter a whole lot once past a certain benchmark. My *istD was a piss poor studio camera because of it's moribund write times (in fact it was a pretty awful camera for a lot of things because of this), but once I bought a K10, it was all good. However, the K10 had metering issues and AF issues that made it less than stellar for some of the other photography that I do, especially when compared to what my partners in crime in the Nikon camp were using. Ben, you are a decent studio photographer (although I don't really like your work), but you aren't pushing the performance envelope of your equipment. However, the rabid fanboys, and the Pentax ones seem to be the most annoying, don't do much to garner anyone's respect, or garner respect for the brand.