[photo_mom]

Hi!

A Saturday morning giggle:

I was invited to visit an art gallery last night as part of a girl's night out. I've been to the museums in Wash. DC before, but never to a real gallery where the pictures/paintings were for sale. Those are not very plentiful out in the boonies where I live (read non-existent) and if I drive more than 30-45 minutes to get to civilization, going to an art gallery is not high on my agenda.

So, naive and uneducated in the world of art transactions, here's me staring at this photograph of a vase that's bigger than a 5x7 but not an 8x10 in a white mat and a plain black frame and priced $700! My first thought is that it was underexposed and my second was that I've seen way better here on a day when most of the threads are occupied with talk about the newest camera/controversy/takeover, i.e., not a day when lots of pictures are posted.

What gives here? Are the prices in an art gallery like that set by the gallery or by the artist?

[borno]

Hey tracy, You need to put your boots on when you go to the galleries I think it's more of a sell of the artist and their sellability(?) some people like to invest in art instead of the bank (even if it is bad). If the print was $7 everyone would think it was quite ordinary. Just my two cents

[bc_the_path]

If only I knew the answer to your question

[PDL]

What gives here? Are the prices in an art gallery like that set by the gallery or by the artist?

I have to chime in here - the price is a mix of the photographer and the gallery. I have a friend who sells images at local stores and a gallery. He is extremely cheap - he thinks he is making money if he gets 5% more that the cost of materials. He is selling his house here in the NW (now that the market is crashing) and moving to Santa FE NM - the second largest art market in the US - and he will be destitute in 6 weeks if he keeps his pricing model.

When you are in the business of selling objects for a living - you must cover the costs of every action. Say you are going to take an image of an eagle - what are the costs to the photographer. (I assume that the camera equipment is all ready covered)
1. Gas to get to and from where the Eagle is.
2. Lunch. (Assume you get the image on the one and only day)
3. Cost of cell phone coverage - you never know when a client is going to call.

You get the image.

4. Cost of you sitting in front of your computer downloading the image, selecting the image, correcting the image and preparing the print.
5. Cost of materials for printing the image (paper and ink) assuming the printer cost is covered.
6. Cost of frame, mat, glass.
Take the image down to the gallery.
7. Gallery takes into account the artist (markup) the Gallery markup (covers credit card, packing and the Gallery profit)

Here is the issue that both my friend and a lot of people neglect. When it is your income you are dealing with - everything has a cost. You must pay yourself a wage - while doing all this "stuff". My friend has spent days getting one or two sellable shots of Eagles (nice stuff some of it) and he sells the image for 5% or about 10 USD more that the cost of the materials == frame, glass, mat and print. He does not include in any of the images he has sold for the hours he has spent on computer time - software costs - gas - food. His real dollar cost per image is not covered by the price he charges. It took about 10 hours to produce the image - he sold it for 40 USD (8x10 in a wood frame, custom mat etc) - Do the math - that is < 4 USD per hour. He just bought a 2000 USD 400mm telephoto yesterday - how many days would it take him to cover that cost? Remember - he sees the only cost as the cost of materials (print, frame, glass and mat) which comes out to about 15 USD - he gets really upset when a reseller takes his 40 USD image and sells it for 80 USD - he complains - I tell him raise your prices - but really understand what the costs really are first.

I purchased an image by another photographer - where if I had purchased the image off of his web site - it would have been 150 USD plus shipping - mounted. We purchased it at a gallery and it was 250 USD. We left it in the Gallery (a coffee shop at Pike's Place Market in Seattle WA) and he later told us that more copies of the image sold because of the "sold" sign on the image. Now, the Galleries cut on the image was about 100 USD if the simplistic model I suppose here is used.

The cost of getting an image into a gallery is not trivial. Add into this that gallery based art is a business with a lot of convolution, prejudices, ego and self implied status. Some galleries are juried - and they are very difficult to get into. Some just show local stuff - and are cheaper - but galleries are a business.

Sorry for the long post - but there is a huge difference in getting images into a gallery as opposed to having images posted to the web. Both the artist and the gallery are trying to make money and that is the bottom line.

When I was in Santa Fe - I saw a Ansel Adams print (printed by Ansel) of Moonrise over Hernandez for 10,000 USD unframed. In the same gallery I saw a Henri Cartier-Bresson image for 150,000 USD framed. And in the Curtis gallery the cheapest unframed image (from the original copper plates -- owned by the gallery) was 1,000 USD. Yeah art ain't cheap - if you have better, then print it and hang it on the wall - stuff on the web is cump change - it is the print that counts.

PDL

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Last edited by PDL; 06-02-2007 at 02:32 PM.

[photo_mom]

Hey tracy, You need to put your boots on when you go to the galleries I think it's more of a sell of the artist and their sellability(?) some people like to invest in art instead of the bank (even if it is bad). If the print was $7 everyone would think it was quite ordinary. Just my two cents

Hi Tom!

Yeah, I figured it was an answer like that (at least for this gallery considering the small town where it's located.) I can't imagine anyone here making a living doing this just because of the limited market. They have to have day jobs.

But PDL's answer below did help give a different light on it.

[photo_mom]

If only I knew the answer to your question

I've learned a few more things about it this morning, mainly from PDL and Karen Clanin (over at DPR).

[photo_mom]

I have to chime in here - the price is a mix of the photographer and the gallery.
...
Yeah art ain't cheap - if you have better, then print it and hang it on the wall - stuff on the web is chump change - it is the print that counts.

PDL

Hi PDL!

Thank you SO much! Your explanation really did help. As I said at the beginning of my OP, "being naive and uneducated in the world of art transactions..." I was dead serious about that. I truly understand the long, hard work that goes into finalizing an image. But really my question was more along the lines of the following: If the artist sets the price based on what he/she thinks the image should recover and then adds some for profit, does the art gallery bump it up? Or, do they ever say "No, you're never going to sell that at that price, it should be this price."? Obviously, the art gallery has to think the image is worthy or they wouldn't even display it, which is why I was really surprised by that particular image even being there, much less the price attached.

And I would never throw my images in with the general statement I said about better being posted here. That was totally meant to imply all the other poster's images.

[PDL]

It is my understanding, since I do not have any images in any gallery anywhere, from my discussions with people who have art in galleries - the gallery starts with what the artist suggests. From what I have gathered, it is similar to selling something on commission where the Gallery adds on its fees.

I have been told that the fees are somewhat based on the "status" of the artist - those who are known get lower fees and high prices where the low level slug gets the low price and high fees - to offset the risk of showing off a new artist. The art scene in your locale will determine the "trend" of the art. Pictures of white tailed deer - do not really sell all that well in the NW - but Eagles and Orca's do.

In the case of my friend (the one moving to NM) - he sold images on commision - and was freaked out by the price the gallery sold them at (70 -100+% markup). An image he would sell at his booth at farmer's markets for 20 USD was going for 40 to 60 USD. And they sold - when he came back to do it again - he lowered his price - they did not. The third time he went back - they refused to take his images --- he always brought the same ones.

Another aquaintence sells images from a juried gallery - the members of the jury are the other artists (including photographers) who sell their images through the gallery. A very tough group to get your work into - as they are your direct competitors. The price for images is not cheap there - and the gallery does suggest a price. The Photo-Eye Gallery in Santa Fe requires you to send numbered prints for sale. The artist can submit a 16 bit TIFF of the image and signed limited set of prints are encouraged. The artist must travel to Santa Fe to sign the prints (you can also oversee the printing). Buyers will come into the gallery or purchase on line - since the series is signed - the artist promises to not sell or make any addtional anywhere else for the term of the contract.

Galleries have a great deal of influence over what they display. If you are going to take your image of a bug into a gallery - you might be shown the door. Galleries have a "flavor" all their own. If you are in a locale that only has one gallery, then your style will have to adjust to what the gallery owner wants to sell.

As for your comment about not suggesting that your images are "good enough". Pardon the expression - but Bolshoi. I imagine that the reason that you hang around here and other places is not to learn how to make good pictures but to make better pictures. Please do not sell your self short. That said -- it is a huge step to take the plunge into photography as a money making venture -- but do not go into this addiction (photography is an addiction) thinking that you are not good.

PDL

[roentarre]

Hi Tracy. Sometimes I think the prints I saw sold by street vendors are usually more beautiful and profound than the ones in gallery exhibition.

Sometimes the photography exhibit could leave scare for life after a viewing ...

[ishino]

PDL - Thanks for the indepth explanation. You really helped me to understand some of the details of selling prints. What I would like to know is how does one start selling prints? Is it really as simple as printing off an image, framing it and taking it to a gallery and asking them if they would sell it?

[little laker]

You'll most likely need a name or some capital to get your work in most galleries, after all they want to ensure that they make their money.

However if you print off some pictures, frame them and take them into some local stores they'll often display them for you.

This is what I've done, I've presently got my work displayed in 3 stores and going into 2 more soon.
I usually give them 24% commission, and they're always happy with that

I'd cut them sweeter deal if they paid cash up front, freeing up some of my money so I could afford to print off more.

I also donate pic's to charity events when I can, and this always gives me positive exposure. You want to leave off a hand full of business cards at these events.

[PDL]

PDL - Thanks for the indepth explanation. You really helped me to understand some of the details of selling prints. What I would like to know is how does one start selling prints? Is it really as simple as printing off an image, framing it and taking it to a gallery and asking them if they would sell it?

Let me be clear here - at the moment I do not have any prints out there for sale - the information in my posts comes from talking to people who do have their work showing in both galleries and other businesses. So let me expand on some of the things I have learned.

In order to get your images out there you have to get peoples attentions. It is a big step to expose your self to that kind of scrutiny. The people I know who are actually making money have worked for many years to get where they are today. Most of them - or at least the ones I have had long conversations with - started with word of mouth. One guy started taking pictures of his wife when she was pregnant with their first child - he brought pictures into work and a few people started to ask him to take informal portraits - mostly for the ID cards we have to wear at work (He was in the IT group and set up the picture ID database and web based phone book for the division on our campus). Through word of mouth - no public advertising - he has nearly all of his weekends scheduled out for portrait sessions of families, children and school photos.

At work we have a annual "Crafts day" - one of the guys takes images of wildlife and some landscapes. He is a desktop computer tech and always brings out his images to show people. He has a web site and he sells images there too. He has gone to local nurseries, cafes and some local card shops. The owners put up his images either on commission or the buy them from him outright - he also makes greeting cards. Once or twice a year (maybe more if the crowd is right) he will go to a farmers market, street fair etc. and sell his images there. This year he did his first wedding (got screwed - didn't really get paid enough) he did have three more people get his business card. However, he is moving to Santa Fe NM - and will be eaten alive by the photographers down there (very good, lots of them with much better business sense).

My ex-third level manager (we have re-orged three times in the last 6 months) sells images off of a semi-pro - pro web site. He travels world wide and has had images published in several magazines. He does make some sales off the web site and you have to have been invited to join the photographers at the site. He does have international connections too.

One guy I know is a web designer who does very nice work (I purchased one of his prints - 250 USD). He has his own web site and has had several one man shows at local Galleries. He also shows his images at two juried galleries.

From what I have been able to glean from talking to these guys is:
1. Shoot lots of images - pick the best ones - build a portfolio and carry it around.
PS: be weary of using your family as an editor - they usually want to support you - not a bad thing - but you need someone to critique (not criticize)
2. Take your portfolio to Galleries, coffee shops, nurseries, local book stores etc. and ask. Some galleries have new artist nights - ask - do face to face.
3. Set up a booth at a farmers market or flea market - something to get your images out there.
4. Ask other photographers - most are willing to talk - if they aren't find another.
5. Contact local newspapers, local organizations, charities (especially auctions - put one of your images up)
6. Submit photos to local photo contests. Anything to get your name out there.
7. Join a local photography club – submit work for their shows – ask members for help.
8. Remember - each gallery will be different - just persevere.
9. Volunteer to take images for activities you attend regularly.

I found a good set of suggestions on how to get your name “out there” when I went here;
Shutterfly Professional Photo Gallery | FAQ
Check out the Q: How can I market my Pro Gallery? FAQ - good stuff.

I do have my site – such as it is – (check my profile), images in the Pentax Gallery and a set of rejected Pentax Gallery images at http://pdlanumimages.shutterfly.com. I am trying to get up the gumption to set up a site – and use a Pro site on shutterfly to sell (they handle all the paperwork – several other sites do the same).

It all comes down to persistence, artistic and business sense. Go to galleries – look at other peoples work. Go to openings – the artist is usually there. Talk – make friends – find out what is on sale – see if your vision works in that environment. Let us know what happens.

PDL – the pontificator
"I love the smell of Kodachrome in the morning, however since digital sniffing an SD just does not cut it – and it makes me look really weird."