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11-03-2009, 02:54 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by flippedgazelle Quote
Yup, you've just pointed out the dark side of Democracy. Democracy, in it's purest form, has nothing to do with absolutes of what's "right" and "wrong", just "popular" and "unpopular".
We're not advanced enough for right and wrong yet.

11-03-2009, 02:57 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by flippedgazelle Quote
Osama, on tape, claimed responsibility for 9/11 attacks.
Osama bin Laden Responsible for the 9/11 Attacks? Where is the Evidence?

QuoteQuote:
The FBI's "Most Wanted Terrorist" webpage on "Usama bin Laden" does not list the 9/11 attacks as one of the crimes for which he is wanted. It does list bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi as terrorist acts for which he is wanted. But it makes no mention of 9/11.10 In 2006, Rex Tomb, then the FBI's chief of investigative publicity, was asked why not. He replied: "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."
...

it would seem, by the Department of Justice and its FBI. If they considered this "confession video" authentic, would they not consider it "hard evidence" of bin Laden's responsibility for 9/11? They say, however, that they have no such evidence, so they must not consider this video authentic.
Edit:
But again, it doesn't make a difference for those poor Afghanis who have lost their lives in the last 8 years, their number definitely exceeds the 3000 victims that died in the twin towers.
It doesn't make a difference for those who demand a mosque in Switzerland.

Are all Christians judged based on the acts of Hitler or on the acts of Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain who ordered the extermination of Jews and Muslims, or on the acts of Crusaders who spilled the blood of countless Muslims, Jews and even Christians on their march to the Holy Land?
Why are all Muslims judged based on the acts of Osama bin Laden (if that was his act)?

Last edited by waqas; 11-03-2009 at 03:06 PM. Reason: edit
11-03-2009, 02:59 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
Yessssss and that is why everyone is still on Germany's back for the whole Nazi incident, "they" considered Jews a threat under false pretenses.
If your leaders told you the following would you think that it was false pretense?

"Every Jew is our enemy in this historic struggle, regardless of whether he vegetates in a Polish ghetto or carries on his parasitic existence in Berlin or Hamburg or blows the trumpets of war in New York or Washington. All Jews by virtue of their birth and their race are part of an international conspiracy against National Socialist Germany. They want its defeat and annihilation, and do all in their power to bring it about. That they can do nothing inside the Reich is hardly a sign of their loyalty, but rather of the appropriate measures we took against them."

Now of course "OUR" leaders where much nicer with their propaganda:

"Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated." "This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."

Overstating the terrorist acts as a declaration of war, instead of a criminal act, which they were, certainly calling the the war a crusade, had significant consequences for the rest of the Islamic population. I would submit that as a result of this and other rhetoric, many can't distinguish the difference between a "terrorist" and a Muslim as illustrated by the OP's link.

QuoteQuote:
When the two towers fell over and Al'Qaeda claimed responsibility, do think there was any doubt whether they were a threat or not? They claimed it in the name of Islam, and they recruit in the name of Islam, and they misuse the Koran to get more people to join their cause, (among other Anti-American and what not propoganda).
So that justifies the attitude toward all Muslims, as long as it's democratic?

QuoteQuote:
Then you have the rest of the Islam community (the majority), say that "the extremists are wrong, we dont agree with them, why do you judge us, judge them, dont judge us, let us live free and peacefully"
yet you defend the idea that the Majority can use whatever means they see fit as long as it is "democratic".

QuoteQuote:
when world war 2 rolled around, do you know what happened to all the Japanese people in British Columbia (Canada)... look it up.
I am familiar thanks.
11-03-2009, 03:09 PM   #34
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QuoteQuote:
you realize that we are talking about building Minarets right?
Gooshin,
That's exactly my point; I was talking about Muslims being denied the right to have a mosque with Minarets and you explained that with "savage Muslims", 9/11, "Muslims blowing up civilized people". Just scroll up and see how this discussion came to this point.

Edit: Gooshin, it looks like you realized that you were the one who brought the discussion here and you deleted your post, I'd be glad if you can just take a few minutes to relax and think about what I have written above and maybe see through the smokescreen of propaganda that you HAVE become Islamophobic if you are justifying Minaret ban by pointing to Osama. And yes, the atrocities on Japanese in North America during WWII does not justify what we are talking about here.


Last edited by waqas; 11-03-2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: edit
11-03-2009, 03:10 PM   #35
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I wonder if any Americans feel responsibility for the thousands lives lost in Afghanistan in the 80's...


QuoteOriginally posted by waqas Quote
Osama bin Laden Responsible for the 9/11 Attacks? Where is the Evidence?



Edit:
But again, it doesn't make a difference for those poor Afghanis who have lost their lives in the last 8 years, their number definitely exceeds the 3000 victims that died in the twin towers.
It doesn't make a difference for those who demand a mosque in Switzerland.

Are all Christians judged based on the acts of Hitler or on the acts of Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain who ordered the extermination of Jews and Muslims, or on the acts of Crusaders who spilled the blood of countless Muslims, Jews and even Christians on their march to the Holy Land?
Why are all Muslims judged based on the acts of Osama bin Laden (if that was his act)?
11-03-2009, 03:12 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by waqas Quote
Gooshin,
That's exactly my point; I was talking about Muslims being denied the right to have a mosque with Minarets and you explained that with "savage Muslims", 9/11, "Muslims blowing up civilized people". Just scroll up and see how this discussion came to this point.
um, i never said "savage muslims" and "muslims blowing up civilized people",

way to put words in my mouth!

i think i did a good job at showcasing the problem of having Muslim Extremists among regular Muslims and the inherit problem of deciding what to do with them, but i guess that just went over your head. You want people to just bend over and let anyone that feels like it walk all over them?

have you SEEN your own immigration laws?

whens the last time you were at an international airport, try this next time, paint your face brown and fly into JFK with 5 suitcases full of crap that looks like bombs, bags of flowers, toy pistols, etc etc. Lets see how "free and easy" your own citizens are going to treat you.

like i said, quit waving your fist at the Swiss like your own shit dont stink. What they are doing may not be the most "ethical" approach but it definitely suits the situation, a situation, that as far as i'm concerned, YOU started.
11-03-2009, 03:19 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by waqas Quote
Edit:
But again, it doesn't make a difference for those poor Afghanis who have lost their lives in the last 8 years, their number definitely exceeds the 3000 victims that died in the twin towers.
It doesn't make a difference for those who demand a mosque in Switzerland.

Are all Christians judged based on the acts of Hitler or on the acts of Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain who ordered the extermination of Jews and Muslims, or on the acts of Crusaders who spilled the blood of countless Muslims, Jews and even Christians on their march to the Holy Land?
Why are all Muslims judged based on the acts of Osama bin Laden (if that was his act)?
Please don't misunderstand me - I'm not making any excuses for any kind of discrimination based on faith, ethnicity, etc. I was merely pointing out that apparently Osama has taken responsibility for 9/11. In addition, in a 1998 interview with CNN, Osama acknowledged that he was aware of explosive devices within the US, and threatened terrorist actions against the US. The Taliban has vowed to protect and support Osama, so by their choice they accept their share of his fate.

QuoteQuote:
During a 1998 interview with ABC's John Miller, Bin Laden reiterated, "We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they [Americans] are all targets.
It is terribly sad and disturbing at the loss of life within Afghanistan. I wonder how many people have died as a result of Afghanistan's proliferation of opium, and their mafia-like tactics in distribution of it?

11-03-2009, 03:21 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by flippedgazelle Quote
It is terribly sad and disturbing at the loss of life within Afghanistan. I wonder how many people have died as a result of Afghanistan's proliferation of opium, and their mafia-like tactics in distribution of it?
Just another example of how this "situation" is complex beyond imagination. And whether or not Switzerland allows for Minarets to be built or not is hardly going to address the key issues.
11-03-2009, 03:25 PM   #39
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Would love to hear an actual European or better yet, a Swiss, comment on this.

Cheers. Mike.
11-03-2009, 03:26 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by waqas Quote
Of all places it's Switzerland where people are now openly condemning minarets, 60 years after the persecution of Jews now it's the Muslims who are at the receiving end of prejudice and hatred, how come the "civilized" nations use such nice words like "freedom" and "liberty" while they are openly condemning a faith that is followed by 25 percent of the world's population?
Will Switzerland Vote to Ban Minarets on Mosques? - TIME
This is precisely such a situaiton when I would like to make sure that all here are well aware of that Switzerland and Sweden are two different countries, despite a slight similarity in spelling and a tradition of neutrality in war. I've noticed Americans have difficulties to keep us appart

Talking about Switzerland and democrazy: it was not until 1971 that women got full federal voting rights in Switzerland...
11-03-2009, 03:27 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ex Finn. Quote
Would love to hear an actual European or better yet, a Swiss, comment on this.

Cheers. Mike.
+1

i love it how Americans always have something to say about the Democracies of other nations, as if you're recipe for apple pie is the best in the world.
11-03-2009, 03:41 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
+1

i love it how Americans always have something to say about the Democracies of other nations, as if you're recipe for apple pie is the best in the world.
You had to go there, stirring up sh*****t..

Cheers. Mike.
11-03-2009, 04:04 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
This is precisely such a situaiton when I would like to make sure that all here are well aware of that Switzerland and Sweden are two different countries, despite a slight similarity in spelling and a tradition of neutrality in war. I've noticed Americans have difficulties to keep us appart

Talking about Switzerland and democrazy: it was not until 1971 that women got full federal voting rights in Switzerland...
Wait... isn't Europe one big oddly-shaped, homogenous, socialist blob?
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11-03-2009, 04:05 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
+1

i love it how Americans always have something to say about the Democracies of other nations, as if you're recipe for apple pie is the best in the world.
Our recipe for apple pie is as American as apple pie!
11-03-2009, 04:22 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by waqas Quote


First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
You may speak out as you wish - just don't expect everyone to be on your side.
Same debate some time ago in a small conservative Christian town around Sydney a few years ago. Muslims in the area gathered together to petition for a mosque to be built in the town, and the community refused.

I'd have a lot to say about Islam, given my experience, but I'll stop short after saying this... the history of Islam is thwarted with crusades against non-believers, gaining political power to suit their cause, gaining influence step by step through the compassion of the society they disagree with, then use this to ultimately plunder the society through Islamic law and the establishment of an Islamic state.
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