[Rupert]

Nope, you haven't got it yet. Are you sure you are up to this?
I'm sorry it's so difficult for you. Maybe if you try just a little harder.
You might have to get a grown up to help you with the big words.

Oh yes, I am up to it and I "get it" just fine. That's what that puke bag is for.
And...thank you for avoiding the big words (like you knew some!) they make puking more difficult.
Regards!

[Rupert]

'The Massachusetts senator and 2004 Democratic presidential candidate has long argued the Bush administration missed a chance to get the al-Qaida leader and top deputies when they were holed up in the forbidding mountainous area of eastern Afghanistan only three months after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.'
Strange, our VC cavorting Senator somehow forgot to mention the multipul opportunities our beloved First Black and BJ President had with Osama. Perhaps his memory has lapsed with age.
''Clinton Let Bin Laden Slip Away and Metastasize
Sudan offered up the terrorist and data on his network. The then-president and his advisors didn't respond.
By MANSOOR IJAZ
President Clinton and his national security team ignored several opportunities to capture Osama bin Laden and his terrorist associates, including one as late as last year. (2001)
I know because I negotiated more than one of the opportunities.
From 1996 to 1998, I opened unofficial channels between Sudan and the Clinton administration. I met with officials in both countries, including Clinton, U.S. National Security Advisor Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger and Sudan's president and intelligence chief. President Omar Hassan Ahmed Bashir, who wanted terrorism sanctions against Sudan lifted, offered the arrest and extradition of Bin Laden and detailed intelligence data about the global networks constructed by Egypt's Islamic Jihad, Iran's Hezbollah and the Palestinian Hamas."
Among those in the networks were the two hijackers who piloted commercial airliners into the World Trade Center.
The silence of the Clinton administration in responding to these offers was deafening.
As an American Muslim and a political supporter of Clinton, I feel now, as I argued with Clinton and Berger then, that their counter-terrorism policies fueled the rise of Bin Laden from an ordinary man to a Hydra-like monster.
Realizing the growing problem with Bin Laden, Bashir sent key intelligence officials to the U.S. in February 1996.
The Sudanese offered to arrest Bin Laden and extradite him to Saudi Arabia or, barring that, to "baby-sit" him--monitoring all his activities and associates.
But Saudi officials didn't want their home-grown terrorist back where he might plot to overthrow them.
In May 1996, the Sudanese capitulated to U.S. pressure and asked Bin Laden to leave, despite their feeling that he could be monitored better in Sudan than elsewhere.
Bin Laden left for Afghanistan, taking with him Ayman Zawahiri, considered by the U.S. to be the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks; Mamdouh Mahmud Salim, who traveled frequently to Germany to obtain electronic equipment for Al Qaeda; Wadih El-Hage, Bin Laden's personal secretary and roving emissary, now serving a life sentence in the U.S. for his role in the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya; and Fazul Abdullah Mohammed and Saif Adel, also accused of carrying out the embassy attacks.
Some of these men are now among the FBI's 22 most-wanted terrorists.
The two men who allegedly piloted the planes into the twin towers, Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi, prayed in the same Hamburg mosque as did Salim and Mamoun Darkazanli, a Syrian trader who managed Salim's bank accounts and whose assets are frozen.
Important data on each had been compiled by the Sudanese.
But U.S. authorities repeatedly turned the data away, first in February 1996; then again that August, when at my suggestion Sudan's religious ideologue, Hassan Turabi, wrote directly to Clinton; then again in April 1997, when I persuaded Bashir to invite the FBI to come to Sudan and view the data; and finally in February 1998, when Sudan's intelligence chief, Gutbi al-Mahdi, wrote directly to the FBI.
Gutbi had shown me some of Sudan's data during a three-hour meeting in Khartoum in October 1996. When I returned to Washington, I told Berger and his specialist for East Africa, Susan Rice, about the data available. They said they'd get back to me. They never did. Neither did they respond when Bashir made the offer directly. I believe they never had any intention to engage Muslim countries--ally or not. Radical Islam, for the administration, was a convenient national security threat.
And that was not the end of it. In July 2000--three months before the deadly attack on the destroyer Cole in Yemen--I brought the White House another plausible offer to deal with Bin Laden, by then known to be involved in the embassy bombings. A senior counter-terrorism official from one of the United States' closest Arab allies--an ally whose name I am not free to divulge--approached me with the proposal after telling me he was fed up with the antics and arrogance of U.S. counter-terrorism officials.
The offer, which would have brought Bin Laden to the Arab country as the first step of an extradition process that would eventually deliver him to the U.S., required only that Clinton make a state visit there to personally request Bin Laden's extradition. But senior Clinton officials sabotaged the offer, letting it get caught up in internal politics within the ruling family--Clintonian diplomacy at its best.
Clinton's failure to grasp the opportunity to unravel increasingly organized extremists, coupled with Berger's assessments of their potential to directly threaten the U.S., represents one of the most serious foreign policy failures in American history.
*
Mansoor Ijaz, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, is chairman of a New York-based investment company. [/I]
>>>National Security Advisor Samuel R. "Sandy" Berger, you remember him 'Cargo Pants Berger was caught stealing secret documents to save someone's butt.

Phil, I read all of this and still don't understand if you are speaking of yourself, a third party or just quoting a "source"? No disrespect intended, maybe you are an Arabian Prince or something and I am the only one unaware of your lofty position....again, I say that with no malice, but I would like to know how you fit in to all this negotiating you speak of.
Not that I doubt a word of it, it all sounds very logical to me. Apparently you are not well acquainted with the American style of governing....left or right. You see, here we wait until there is a catastrophe to notice all the warning signs we already had available but ignored for whatever reasons you care to pick. Take for example, if we had a forecast of a major hurricane headed for a major coastal city....maybe several days notice? By the time an American President was aware of the catastrophe, he would already be on the 18th Green. Now where you are from this might sound backwards, but I can assure you that it is the way things work in America.
Regards!

[Phil1]

Dear Rupert,

You indicated that GW's private military missing an OBL opportunity was newly confirmed news. Hardly. It's been common knowledge for some time. It's particularly laughable coming from Sen. Kerry our Band Aided Purple Heart vet. I am simply pointing out through Ijaz's writings that Bush's predicessor also missed OBL a few times before 911 which Sen Kerry fails to mention. This simply points out the general incompetence of Kerry and the Gov't as a whole.

Mr. MANSOOR IJAZ is not Phil1. Here is a link to his back ground:
Mansoor Ijaz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I hope that will clarify things for you.

I personally believe the capturing or killing of OBL, if he is still alive, is useless at this point. It will not correct 911 or will it have much effect on the future operations of AQ, the Taliban et al. He, alive or dead, is a straw man and is used for political purposes as Kerry has done and the terrorist still do too. Sure it's good to review history as long as you have all of the history.

Enjoy.

[Rupert]

Thanks for the clarification. Government incompetence is not limited to the left...or right, but by the party in power, where it always seems to be unlimited.
Bin Laden is a symbol, you are correct, and was invaluable as a tool for Bush and company to keep old ladies and children afraid to go out at night....while supporting his phony war in Iraq. I suspect Obama will not want to get rid of him too soon either, it would spoil his Afghanistan adventure where he hopes to be the first man in history to conquer that wretched land. When all is said and done, this war will put Obama in the same light as Bush....the bright spotlight of reality.
Regards

[Blue]

I find it interesting that you hold foreign leaders to a higher standard than you hold your own.
I suppose it's less painful to kill a Middle Eastern president than a good old boy from Arkansas or Texas.
Perhaps if your leaders did have to think about the repercussions of their decisions they would make better decisions.

G.W. never used mustard gas on Oklahoma nor did he have thousands of people from the opposing party thrown in jail and/or shot.

[Wheatfield]

G.W. never used mustard gas on Oklahoma nor did he have thousands of people from the opposing party thrown in jail and/or shot.

No, but he did deploy some 315 tonnes of depleted uranium ammunition in Iraq. The long term effects of radiation poisoning will be something that generations of Iraqis will have to deal with:
Be warned, you will need a strong stomach to get through this page:
War Crimes -- Committed "In All Our Names" - Crimes Against Humanity: Radiation Poisoning -

Some background:

Iraqis Trace Surge in Cancer to US Bombings
Soaring birth deformities and child cancer rates in Iraq

You can believe it or shrug it off.

And, while not authorized directly by whomever was at the top inthe uSA at the time, it would appear that some of that poison gas technology that Hussein used came from USA corporations:

From:
Halabja poison gas attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The provision of chemical precursors from United States companies to Iraq was enabled by a Ronald Reagan administration policy that removed Iraq from the State Department's list of State Sponsors of Terrorism. Leaked portions of Iraq's "Full, Final and Complete" disclosure of the sources for its weapons programs shows that thiodiglycol, a substance needed to manufacture mustard gas, was among the chemical precursors provided to Iraq from US companies such as Alcolac International and Phillips. Both companies have since undergone reorganization and Phillips, once a subsidiary of Phillips Petroleum is now part of ConocoPhillips, an American oil and energy company, while Alcolac International has since dissolved and reformed as Alcolac Inc.[18]"

This is Wikipedia, so you never know, i just might have written that....

Anyway, you'll get no arguement from me that Hussein was a monster, but this in no way deflects from the truth that GWB is/was no better.
The difference is, Hussein was tried and executed for his crimes against humanity, GWB got a nice government pension.

[Blue]

Wheatfield,

Organophosphates are a major class of pesticides and there are dozens of countries including in Europe, and Japan that manufacture them which evolved from the WWI and WWII era of gases. The U.S. hasn't used gasses in warfare. They haven't used biological for that matter. Of course some people believe in the Easter Bunny.

The DU is a concern. However, it is used in armor for tanks as well as the guns to knock out tanks which is why the Russian T-72 tanks were ineffective. Also, one should note that even before the Gulf War, much of Iraqi soil was already highly contaminated from previous conflicts (e.g. chemical and biological warfare against Iran, Iraqi Kurds).

[Wheatfield]

Wheatfield,

Organophosphates are a major class of pesticides and there are dozens of countries including in Europe, and Japan that manufacture them which evolved from the WWI and WWII era of gases. The U.S. hasn't used gasses in warfare. They haven't used biological for that matter. Of course some people believe in the Easter Bunny.

Probably a fairly safe bet that the Thiodiglycol that US companies sold him didn't go into ballpoint pen ink.

The DU is a concern. However, it is used in armor for tanks as well as the guns to knock out tanks which is why the Russian T-72 tanks were ineffective. Also, one should note that even before the Gulf War, much of Iraqi soil was already highly contaminated from previous conflicts (e.g. chemical and biological warfare against Iran, Iraqi Kurds).

That's rich. It's alright to slow nuke them because they've already survived a gas attack?

[Blue]

Probably a fairly safe bet that the Thiodiglycol that US companies sold him didn't go into ballpoint pen ink.



That's rich. It's alright to slow nuke them because they've already survived a gas attack?

Do you realize that most NATO militaries use DU? I'm not arguing the "safety" of it one way or the other. However, using it as a definitive to label a former Pres as a war criminal and equate him to S.H. is total bull shit. I don't like G.W. and old Dick even less but the accusations of war crimes is rich. The real travesty is that the Iraq thing should have been solved in '92. Hell, I was all for seeing how the Saudis would have faired against the Republican Guard without any intervention.

[Phil1]

DU is pretty benine actually. It is handle daily by troops and such. It is a prefered weight (under water keel ballast) for racing sail boats and outlawed by the Americas Cup folks only because of cost. It's danger is in an aerosol form which is a by product of a projectile hit. It should be feared like licking lead paint and intake of the millions of tons of tetraethylead lead additives to gasoline. It's not great to have around but far safer than a muslim with a TV camera and a bomb on a train. DU has become the favorite bogey man for many folks that would prefer our troops go to a knife fight with a smile and a pillow. DU by the way has almost zero radiation, it is just a toxic substance when ingested but it has a nice scarry ring to it doesn't it? Far more folks are killed in the world with cholesterol so lets include bacon in the scarry stuff lexicon.

Here is what it is used in (quote):
Military applications

The 105mm M900 APFSDS-T (Depleted Uranium Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot - Tracer)Depleted uranium is very dense; at 19050 kg/m³, it is 1.67 times as dense as lead, only slightly less dense than tungsten and gold, and 84% as dense as osmium or iridium, which are the densest known substances under standard (i.e., Earth-surface) pressures. Thus a given mass of it has a smaller diameter than an equivalent lead projectile, with less aerodynamic drag and deeper penetration due to a higher pressure at point of impact. DU projectile ordnance is often incendiary because of its pyrophoric property.[29]

[edit] Armor plate
Because of its high density, depleted uranium can also be used in tank armor, sandwiched between sheets of steel armor plate. For instance, some late-production M1A1HA and M1A2 Abrams tanks built after 1998 have DU reinforcement as part of the armor plating in the front of the hull and the front of the turret, and there is a program to upgrade the rest (see Chobham armor).

[edit] Nuclear weapons
Depleted uranium is used as a tamper in fission bombs and as a nuclear explosive in hydrogen bombs. It is a potential containment material for a Nuclear shaped charge due to its opacity to X-Rays.

[edit] Ammunition
Most military use of depleted uranium has been as 30 mm caliber ordnance, primarily the 30 mm PGU-14/B armour-piercing incendiary round from the GAU-8 Avenger cannon of the A-10 Thunderbolt II used by the United States Air Force. 25 mm DU rounds have been used in the M242 gun mounted on the U.S. Army's Bradley Fighting Vehicle and LAV-25. The United States Marine Corps uses DU in the 25 mm PGU-20 round fired by the GAU-12 Equalizer cannon of the AV-8B Harrier, and also in the 20 mm M197 gun mounted on AH-1 Cobra helicopter gunships. The United States Navy's Phalanx CIWS's M61 Vulcan Gatling gun used 20 mm armor-piercing penetrator rounds with discarding plastic sabots which were made using depleted uranium, later changed to tungsten.

Another use of depleted uranium is in kinetic energy penetrators anti-armor rounds, such as the 120 mm sabot rounds fired from the M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams.[30] Kinetic energy penetrator rounds consist of a long, relatively thin penetrator surrounded by discarding sabot. Two materials lend themselves to penetrator construction: tungsten and depleted uranium, the latter in designated alloys known as staballoys. Staballoys are metal alloys of depleted uranium with a very small proportion of other metals, usually titanium or molybdenum. One formulation has a composition of 99.25 percent by mass of depleted uranium and 0.75 percent by mass of titanium. Staballoys are about twice as dense as lead and are designed for use in kinetic energy penetrator armor-piercing ammunition. The US Army uses DU in an alloy with around 3.5 percent titanium.


1987 photo of Mark 149 Mod 2 20mm depleted uranium ammunition for the Phalanx CIWS aboard USS Missouri (BB-63).Staballoys, along with lower raw material costs, have the advantage of being easy to melt and cast into shape; a difficult and expensive process for tungsten. According to recent research,[31] at least some of the most promising tungsten alloys which have been considered as replacement for depleted uranium in penetrator ammunitions, such as tungsten-cobalt or tungsten-nickel-cobalt alloys, also possess extreme carcinogenic properties, which by far exceed those (confirmed or suspected) of depleted uranium itself: 100 percent of rats implanted with a pellet of such alloys developed lethal rhabdomyosarcoma within a few weeks. On more properly military grounds, depleted uranium is favored for the penetrator because it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric.[29] On impact with a hard target, such as an armored vehicle, the nose of the rod fractures in such a way that it remains sharp. The impact and subsequent release of heat energy causes it to disintegrate to dust and burn when it reaches air because of its pyrophoric properties.[29] When a DU penetrator reaches the interior of an armored vehicle, it catches fire, often igniting ammunition and fuel, killing the crew, and possibly causing the vehicle to explode. DU is used by the U.S. Army in 120 mm or 105 mm cannons employed on the M1 Abrams and M60A3 tanks. The Russian military has used DU ammunition in tank main gun ammunition since the late 1970s, mostly for the 115 mm guns in the T-62 tank and the 125 mm guns in the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks.

>>>I would suggest left over explosives from conventional warfare would be a bigger issue but that's just a quess.

[Parallax]

...nor did he have thousands of people from the opposing party thrown in jail and/or shot.

Not sure we can say that about Clinton, though.

[Wheatfield]

DU is pretty benine actually.

From: Depleted uranium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The external radiation dose from DU is about 60 percent of that from the same mass of natural uranium.

That sounds really benign to me.
355 tons of the stuff, a lot of it sitting around as dust after vaporizing when it hits armour plate.
You don't need to conquer iraq, you can go home, your work there is done.
Just wait a few more generations for the radiation to finish what you started.

[Wheatfield]

Do you realize that most NATO militaries use DU? I'm not arguing the "safety" of it one way or the other. However, using it as a definitive to label a former Pres as a war criminal and equate him to S.H. is total bull shit. I don't like G.W. and old Dick even less but the accusations of war crimes is rich. The real travesty is that the Iraq thing should have been solved in '92. Hell, I was all for seeing how the Saudis would have faired against the Republican Guard without any intervention.

Just one more nail.
The biggie of course, is ordering the invasion of a foreign country without provocation. That kind of thing is called mass murder. Using your military to do it doesn't alter what it is.

[Rupert]

Well Wheatfield, we don't disagree on everything, do we?
"Just one more nail.
The biggie of course, is ordering the invasion of a foreign country without provocation. That kind of thing is called mass murder. Using your military to do it doesn't alter what it is."
Regards

[Ratmagiclady]

Funny how they're still trying to Swiftboat Kerry to divert from what Bush did and how he screwed it up.

When Al Qaeda was pinned down in Tora Bora, Bush&co were well known to have started pulling our own troops out when they should have been sending some in to finish the job, ...to mobilize for Iraq and also because, given they wanted to mobilize for the Iraq war they were pushing, both were pulling resources *out* of Afghanistan, and *away* from Tora Bora. This much, anyone could hear on the news.

To get ready for the Iraq invasion Bush was busily trying to sell, ...also because we could expect significant American casualties there, which would blunt enthusiasm for going into Iraq, especially if we'd already gotten the bad guys rather than having them out there to try and frighten us about being connected to Saddam and WMDs and all that other stuff.

Prior to turning Iraq into a big mess and Bush's behavior shoving that war down people's throats and generally cheesing off the world, there was support and sympathy for America at an all time high in the world, which Bush turned to an all-time low.

Going into Afghanistan to kick Osama's tail and take down the Taliban (Who'd been committing terrible abuses there for years, and hobnobbing with American Fundies over things like stopping sex ed in Africa,) ...were legitimate and achievable goals.

Trying to redirect America's anger and fear toward Bush's personal 'Crusade' in Iraq was something we could see at the time, but we'd be called 'traitors' and 'America-haters' and 'paranoid' when we said it.