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12-08-2009, 07:45 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Then again, maybe "they" plan to keep the poor countries poor after all.

Copenhagen climate summit in disarray after 'Danish text' leak | Environment | guardian.co.uk
Let's see how long it takes the news agencies here in the US to pick this up and run it.

12-09-2009, 09:10 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
'Developing nations can develop to redouble our pollution problems, or we can invest in them to try and not be that way.'

Huh?

1. The developing nations ie India and China say stuff it.
China and India are two different cases, for one thing.

For another, China may be the ones who capitalized on it, but it's the US that opposed even something so humble as the Kyoto accords, while China built coal-fired plants and we outsourced our manufacturing there.


QuoteQuote:
2. We have no 'investment' monies. Maybe China will make us a loan so we can force feed them pollution standards. That should work well.
I thought this was supposed to be an argument *against* having standards over here all these years, cause then we wouldn't be 'competitive' with countries that had no such standards? China doesn't have a Third World economy in this regard.


QuoteQuote:
Clean air is good for you. Too bad we have politicians managing it.
What, like Bush's Orwellianly-named 'Clear Skies Initiative' ...which gutted the Clean Air act and yet didn't stop the gutting and outsourcing of our domestic manufacturing?
12-09-2009, 09:56 AM   #33
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'For another, China may be the ones who capitalized on it, but it's the US that opposed even something so humble as the Kyoto accords, while China built coal-fired plants and we outsourced our manufacturing there.'

The Kyoto Accords excluded China and others. Kinda like setting a 55 MPH speed limit on the freeway to save gas but the pre 1960 junkers can travel at 150 MPH. This country is free to take all the clean air steps the gov't and industry can sensibly make. By the way, where is the alternate fuel the left was screaming about 5 years ago? Ethanol is a subsidized joke.

To bring you up to date:
'On July 25, 1997, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy, along with 93 other senators (with five senators not voting and none voting in opposition) adopted a resolution stating that ‘the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol to, or other agreement regarding, the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change of 1992, at negotiations in Kyoto.’ Shouldn’t someone who has held the office of vice president of the United States and who has sought the presidency disclose the facts, even when reviewing a book? The reason that Gore’s name is not found with the 95 others is that as vice president presiding over the Senate, he could not cast a vote unless there was a tie. On the Kyoto vote the result was 95 to 0 against the treaty.

Bummer is free to sign the Kyoto Accords today. Lets see him do it. I think he is too busy working towards free heath care, abortions and medicinal dope for illegals. But hey, that's just me.

The free lunch line starts on the other side of the world.
12-09-2009, 10:27 AM   #34
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The President can't sign a treaty without it being approved by 2/3 of the Senate as per the U.S. Constitution. I'm not sure it is a good idea for a sitting President to even be at such a meeting.

That's one of the reasons the recent announcement of the EPA was such a big deal. There is an un-elected government agency writing legislation and policy which will be enforced by bazaar czars with no congressional oversight.


Last edited by Blue; 12-09-2009 at 10:39 AM.
12-09-2009, 10:33 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
Again.....
What? All I did was say we agreed on something and that begets one of your pointless rants?
Been there, done that. I told you, the only thing that incurs the wrath of RML more than arguing with her is agreeing with her.
Hell hath no fury like an RML agreed with..........or disagreed with..............or acknowledged.............or ignored..........or.....................
12-09-2009, 10:58 AM   #36
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'The President can't sign a treaty without it being approved by 2/3 of the Senate as per the U.S. Constitution. I'm not sure it is a good idea for a sitting President to even be at such a meeting.

That's one of the reasons the recent announcement of the EPA was such a big deal. There is an un-elected government agency writing legislation and policy which will be enforced by bazaar czars with no congressional oversight.'


Well said.

I wonder how much less coal we would be burning if the left was not so sideways for years on nuke power. We invented it and the French lead us by miles in nuke technology and generate about 85% of the country's total power by nuke plants. They even export power to Germany. The founder of Green Peace bolted from the lefty rants and now advocates nuke power. What a country??? What damage they have done!
12-09-2009, 11:09 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
'For another, China may be the ones who capitalized on it, but it's the US that opposed even something so humble as the Kyoto accords, while China built coal-fired plants and we outsourced our manufacturing there.'

The Kyoto Accords excluded China and others. Kinda like setting a 55 MPH speed limit on the freeway to save gas but the pre 1960 junkers can travel at 150 MPH. This country is free to take all the clean air steps the gov't and industry can sensibly make. By the way, where is the alternate fuel the left was screaming about 5 years ago? Ethanol is a subsidized joke.
Actually, 'the Left' were the ones saying that, in particular *corn*-based ethanol is a joke: it's an agribusiness subsidy. Its only real virtues are ostensibly-economic ones, (like sagging agricultural prices of the time,) and, importantly, being a way to transition to some non-fossil fuel based infrastructure. Burning the food crops is of course of dubious value at best, but if you have an ethanol system in place, you can make ethanol out of more-efficient and sustainable things, like mixed prairie grasses (though the Bush administration cut off funding for developing that very thing, thus making it *really* into a joke. But don't blame 'The Left' for that.




QuoteQuote:
Bummer is free to sign the Kyoto Accords today. Lets see him do it. I think he is too busy working towards free heath care, abortions and medicinal dope for illegals. But hey, that's just me.

The free lunch line starts on the other side of the world.

That'd seem to be your guiding star, wouldn't it? Throw insults and say, screw the world if there's a possibility of a 'free lunch' for anyone but finance execs?

Someone trying to use the fact that they don't like abortion being legal to stymie any attempts to stop our nation being ripped off to get less health care doesn't mean Obama is 'working toward abortions.' If you hadn't noticed, corporate 'health care' has been paying for those as it is. Your fixation on controlling others' sex lives and reproduction on 'The Right' is a separate issue from how we pay for health care. We're paying for fertility treatments and Viagra in an overpopulated world, too. It's not a referendum on what we *like.*

I don't know if by 'medicinal dope' you mean to try to conjure images of illegal immigrants smoking up on medical marijuana, or just don't like methodone clinics in an ongoing drug crisis, but again, you're trying to draw some xenophobic linkage between your mean-spirited idea of other people and the idea it's a good idea to ignore and continue to worsen an ongoing crisis the entire world's future is facing.

Kyoto was a good move... For its time. Woefully-inadequate and problematic by the time that vote had come around.


Frankly, I find it deeply saddening and alarming that some seem bent on using their hatreds and worship of short-term profits to try and immobilize the world against lifting a finger to even slow down the process of despoiling the world we and all those to come rely on.

Species and ecosystems we can't replace are going extinct on a daily basis, the cheap fossil fuels corporations want us to *increasingly* rely on even as they get more expensive ...cannot sustain the 'development' everyone wants, never mind be borne by our skin of atmosphere much longer... whole island nations are having to be evacuated thanks to rising sea levels... all of which promises ever more suffering, strife, and of course, religious radicalism... (not to mention 'immigration' and urbanization problems as agrarian people have to move to the cities or wherever they can find a life...)

And all 'the Right' can do is spout aforementioned hatred, xenophobia, and religious radicalism. Try and obfuscate the accepted science as if this constituted a good reason to 'stay the course' toward big crashes and further toxification of what's left of our environment....

...Doubtless, when things don't mysteriously start getting better by doing ever more of the same irresponsible things, they'll just call it 'God's punishment' and intensify the scapegoatings of the Right's 'usual suspects.'

You can already see it. Look at Africa, and the 'witch hunts' there, supported by the African Anglicans who want everyone to be upset about gay Episcopal bishops, while endorsing those who want to torture old people and children for 'witchcraft' and enacting darn near *genocidal* anti-gay laws.

Then they reimport the hysteria back to the US in the form of Dominionist and Third Wave Christian Fundamentalism, people that want to stone me in the street and go to Sarah Palin's churches.

With great irony, of course, they want people to pray for Obama to die horribly and accuse others of black magic.

Don't *ever* get in the way of anyone making a buck, of course, as long as they aren't doing it in a way that *doesn't* promise a darker future for all. *Then* of course you can claim it's all a scam for the filthy lucre of academic grants and actually finding ways to make carbon offsets *profitable* for people you don't want to see regulated by governments.

It's ugly, man.

The best that can happen if deniers have their way is things keep getting worse on all fronts in the way they have been.

The worst that can happen if we make great effort to come together as a world and start working on what we should have started doing thirty years ago, (Frankly, it would have been a lot easier to help the rest of the world 'develop' in "greener" ways *then,* before we went right ahead and exported the notion of 'modernizing' the 'dirty' way: it was always clear to me that as we stalled at cleaning up our *own* act, what we were also doing was exporting the product of all that stalling: unsustainable and dirty overconsumption, and all the social and health problems that come with these.) .... is that you can sit in a more sustainable and long-term prosperous world and make fun of me for having been in a fuss about 'nothing.'

In fact, I expect it. I'll take it.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-09-2009 at 11:17 AM.
12-09-2009, 11:17 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
...........................The worst that can happen if we make great effort to come together as a world and start working on what we should have started doing thirty years ago, is you can sit in a more sustainable and long-term prosperous world and make fun of me for having been in a fuss about 'nothing.'................
Somebody should do something! Somebody should do something!
What exactly will your contribution to that "great effort" be? I don't think increasing the demand for electricity by sitting at home all day in front of the computer qualifies.

12-09-2009, 11:23 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
What exactly will be your "great effort" contribution to that? I don't think increasing the demand for electricity by sitting at home all day in front of the computer qualifies.
Frankly, I see the electricity meters every day. We use less juice here than our downstairs neighbor somehow manages to go through without even being *home.* This place isn't even insulated well, as my joints have been painfully-reminding me just this past week. Suppose it's one advantage of this rapidly-becoming-untenably-obsolete computer, though. Doesn't take a lot of juice to crunch the adware.

It's probably one good reason I get upset about the rhetoric *against* responsibility. I'm painfully-aware that there's a limited amount beyond talk which I could do. If I were able-bodied, I'd still be elsewhere, or on a homestead or two I can think of in particular. Fact is, I live *slowly.* So I'm not the best example. But I'm not driving, running a big machine in some climate-controlled cubicle, eating a lot of pre-packaged food, or throwing money and resources at too much of the usual props of a working-world life. There's only so much money, and when it's gone, it's gone. Not the best possible use of time or what resources it takes to keep me alive, no, but my options are limited due to some past and present realities.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-09-2009 at 11:34 AM.
12-09-2009, 11:27 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
What exactly will your contribution to that "great effort" be?
QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Frankly, I see the electricity meters every day. ...............
Well, that should solve the world energy crisis all by itself.
12-09-2009, 11:36 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Well, that should solve the world energy crisis all by itself.
The one minute you're proclaiming my inherent uselessness, the next you're trying to defend irresponsibility based on saying, 'You first?' (even if I *am* actually living a pretty darn 'green' life, after all?)

What would you have me do, be a particularly-inefficient competitor for one of those cubicle slots? (Of which I can't help but notice, there's some mention of there not being enough to go around as it is?)

Perhaps 'renounce my sinful ways' and breed more 'surplus population?' Hey, if I could have been the *lawyer* some were trying to make of me, you'd be calling me nasty names, too.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-09-2009 at 11:42 AM.
12-09-2009, 11:43 AM   #42
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YOU brought up Kyoto/Bush.

'Bummer is free to sign the Kyoto Accords today.

Aside from common sense and that the Kyoto scam was dead before it left the birth canal, you and Bummer can start working on the wonderful Kyoto package today. Have at it if it is so wonderful. Let him know you are distressed that Bush and the Senate didn't play and he should.

Psst! Legal abortion is fine for you. I just don't want to pay for it if you or your friends are too stupid to use condoms, IUDs, spermacide, BC pills, vasectomy, tubal ligation, the morning after pill, douche, the other schemes of orgasm or go with out or adoption. Kill a fetus and save a whale works for me if it's your spawn. The man in the sky or on Wall Street has nothing to do with it.
12-09-2009, 11:50 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
The one minute you're proclaiming my inherent uselessness, ................
I have never called you useless. In fact, if you search my prior posts, you will see where I tried very hard, in more than one of them, to both motivate you and bolster your self esteem by making suggestions on what you might be able to do. You shot that idea down immediately. Working would cut too deeply into your whining time.
12-09-2009, 11:51 AM   #44
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'It's probably one good reason I get upset about the rhetoric *against* responsibility.'

LOL!!!! Strange, you seem to be a huge supporter of liberal waste, corruption and the like. Which is it in your other reality?

Reproduction responsibility? Fiscal responsibility? I don't see it in your excuse making and worship of the Global Warming demagogary.
12-09-2009, 11:56 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
......................It's probably one good reason I get upset about the rhetoric *against* responsibility. ................
If you are speaking of responsibility to society, then that statement, coming from you, is absolutely hilarious.
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