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12-19-2009, 02:00 AM   #1
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Life After Copenhagen...?

...Will go on.

The human species has shown over time it has a remarkable ability to survive Ice Ages, previous Global Warming eras, flood, drought, war, evolution, Collingwood winning a Grand Final , and goodness knows what else.

The only comment on Copenhagen I will make is that who ever dreamed up the scenario of puting 45,000 delegates, assistants, media etc into a conference venue that holds 15,000 and was expecting a consensus of opinion.....really needs some help.

Copenhagen has concluded, finished, finito, The End.... what now?

So what will you do to lessen your pollution footprint on the planet? I have yet to meet anyone who does not acknowledge that our climate is changeing...the dis-agreement and debate centres around how, when & why (remember those books).

So, back to my question, what are you going to do today, tomorrow and beyond to do your bit to reduce pollution. I have just got up from the computer and turned off two lights that did not need to be burning. It is very hot & humid right now...I could turn on the air con....I have opened windows & doors instead.

Lets not bitch and moan about cliche`s and science...lets get active and do something yourself...now, this minute.

Because together we can actually make a difference if we are prepared to make some sacrifices along the way, we do not (inmho) need new taxes and money making schemes, we need you & me to get off our butts and do what we can as part of our daily lives, and encourage those around us to do likewise...are we capable?

End of sermon.....thanks for reading this far.
Grant


Last edited by Mallee Boy; 12-19-2009 at 02:09 AM. Reason: spellin'
12-19-2009, 02:29 AM   #2
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I was thinking "killing spree" but my legal counsel tells me that's frowned upon.
12-19-2009, 04:12 AM   #3
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Well Copenhagen as a good idea has just exposed itself. The huge group grope never works for much anyway except move steam ships full of cash and control around. If anything is going to be improved upon it still lies on a macro level. Each person, each community, state, country, hemisphere is were things will get done before or after Copengagen. Continued development of better ideas that are economically sound is where it is at. The fakes and flakes demagoging this issue are slightly better than a tired clown convention.

It does make wonderful sense to borrow money we don't have from China to give back to China and India to wipe thier own butts with when they don't want to wipe. We need an Academy Award and a Nobel Prize for that one.

The left should be digging into the big bag of BS and lay out the new cheap 'alternate non-carbon fuel' giant duby it has been smoking for so long that will drive industry forward. Hope, change, legal pot and unicorn farts are not going to move the big bus very far down the road. How's Pelosi's new big private airplane doing that we are paying for? Do you really think she is recycling her supermarket shopping bags to save the planet? The Queen took the train, Pelosi has her own private air force.

If we were not paying for this crap it would really be funny. My 2 cents.
12-19-2009, 04:16 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
It does make wonderful sense to borrow money we don't have from China to give back to China and India to wipe thier own butts with when they don't want to wipe. We need an Academy Award and a Nobel Prize for that one.
HA! Speak for yourself.

QuoteQuote:
How's Pelosi's new big private airplane doing that we are paying for?[/ Do you really think she is recycling her supermarket shopping bags to save the planet? The Queen took the train, Pelosi has her own private air force.

If we were not paying for this crap it would really be funny. My 2 cents.
See above.

12-19-2009, 07:36 AM   #5
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I am and have been doing my part, but it just doesn't seem to be making any significant impact. I've been using CF bulbs for a long time (mainly because they last a long time and I hate replacing bulbs) even though they are a hazard at disposal time; Last January I needed a new car so I downsized from a mid-sized to a compact and am now getting 30% better fuel economy; I do recycle.

But now I find out that, in spite of my efforts, me and my family, and every one of you are careless polluters. The EPA has classified CO2 and methane as dangerous pollutants. This means that every time I breath or pass gas I'm destroying the environment. Oh, sure, I've tried not to breath and I hold my gas until I just about explode, but It just doesn't seem to be helping. I even asked my boss to go ban breathing in the workplace, but I failed to get that policy enacted. What's a poor polluter like me to do?

Seriously, though, while I believe we should be good stewards of our environment, these wealth transfer schemes will do nothing in the short haul and will be potentially devastating to our economies in the long term. My hope is that something constructive has come from Copenhagen, but more than that, I hope that nothing potentially destructive has been agreed to by our jet setting leaders.
12-19-2009, 07:52 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mallee Boy Quote
............

Copenhagen has concluded, finished, finito, The End....
......................
If only that were true.
12-19-2009, 08:05 AM   #7
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Here is a fun UK recap on the Copenhagen Clam Bake:

Copenhagen climate summit: 'most important paper in the world' is a glorified UN press release – Telegraph Blogs

I hope they were all able to private jet home before the blizzard sets in on Washington DC.
12-19-2009, 08:10 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
I am and have been doing my part, but it just doesn't seem to be making any significant impact. I've been using CF bulbs for a long time (mainly because they last a long time and I hate replacing bulbs) even though they are a hazard at disposal time; Last January I needed a new car so I downsized from a mid-sized to a compact and am now getting 30% better fuel economy; I do recycle.
Actually, America's become the worst per-capita energy-waster and thus polluter in large measure because of household energy waste, (even more than vehicle emissions: it's just harder to do any one thing to fix that. ) This major part of the mess comes from hundreds of millions of people *wasting* a whole lot of energy and overconsuming. Everyone thinks, 'Well, what I'm doing doesn't matter' when it comes to thinking a little conservation would cramp their style, or whatever other excuse... but just as it has added up to a big problem in the making, it takes a whole lot of people to pay attention and conserve to *fix* that part of the problem.

In some ways, it's the *easiest* part. Doesn't require much in the way of grand infrastructure projects or big equipment. Just, really, a bit of a change in our own 'culture.' Who really wants to pay a third of their energy bill for what isn't enhancing their quality of life to begin with?

Even 'Conservation' has long been some kind of 'heresy' or threat of tyranny to the Right since I was a kid... Is seen to impede consumerism and all that stuff. But it's very worth doing.

QuoteQuote:
But now I find out that, in spite of my efforts, me and my family, and every one of you are careless polluters. The EPA has classified CO2 and methane as dangerous pollutants. This means that every time I breath or pass gas I'm destroying the environment. Oh, sure, I've tried not to breath and I hold my gas until I just about explode, but It just doesn't seem to be helping. I even asked my boss to go ban breathing in the workplace, but I failed to get that policy enacted. What's a poor polluter like me to do?
No, that's not 'what it means.'

This kind of disingenuous nonsense isn't helping anything. Breathing isn't *adding* carbon to the biosphere. Methane's certainly a stronger greenhouse gas than is CO2, but despite how it may look in some rooms, human flatulence really isn't high on the list of problems.


As for Copenhagen, I'm pretty much trying to look at the positives: sure, it's a fairly weak and non-binding agreement, but it's an agreement. Not many, apparently on either side, want to see it that way. But I think it's a framework for some future developments, and one in which, really, a lot of the positions of various nations and moneyed interests were laid out on the table.

Not all the nations of the world showed ready to prioritize this over immediate economic interests, but they're basically on record about some positions: this gives us all a lot to work with in terms of negotiating about various cases. Defining the *problems* as regards the politics and economics of things is certainly a major step toward working out some solutions.

While all the righties were in a panic about this thing, nattering on about not believing the problem exists and thinking the economic sky would fall, I really was entertaining only modest expectations for this conference, itself. It's good to see some motion on this, even if it's not what it could or should be.

12-19-2009, 08:12 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
Seriously, though, while I believe we should be good stewards of our environment, these wealth transfer schemes will do nothing in the short haul and will be potentially devastating to our economies in the long term.
It's not like there's any other way for them to be devastated.
12-19-2009, 08:37 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
Seriously, though, while I believe we should be good stewards of our environment, these wealth transfer schemes will do nothing in the short haul and will be potentially devastating to our economies in the long term. ..................
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
It's not like there's any other way for them to be devastated.
So we should just add one more?
12-19-2009, 08:46 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
It's not like there's any other way for them to be devastated.
Exactly. No need to exacerbate it with these silly wealth transfer schemes and/or forced reductions in the production and use of energy.
12-19-2009, 09:07 AM   #12
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The idea it hasn't been a *bigger* 'wealth transfer' for industry and moneyed interests to profit off waste and dumping of pollutants as if they had a right to treat the future costs of cleanup and coping with the effects as 'free' ..Is something I'm tired of hearing.

Certainly, the way the US has been going, the biggest 'wealth transfer' in history was Bush's war and corporate subsidies and bailouts. Even the *debt,* borrowed from the world, ...who do you think it got *paid* to? Look at the increasing stratification of wealth right here in America, not to mention the rest of the world: more and more of the wealth has been *transferred* to fewer and fewer people who are becoming richer and richer... who then get you to act like it's *you* getting ripped off if *they* aren't allowed to *continue* this process at the same rate.
12-19-2009, 09:19 AM   #13
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Ok, so tell me exaxtly how transferring wealth to "developing" countries will reduce carbon and save us all from global warming? The answer must be obvious and I just don't see it. Let's say that we give 100 billion a year to developing nations, by what percent will CO2 emmissions be cut?
12-19-2009, 10:12 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by areidjr Quote
Ok, so tell me exaxtly how transferring wealth to "developing" countries will reduce carbon and save us all from global warming? The answer must be obvious and I just don't see it. Let's say that we give 100 billion a year to developing nations, by what percent will CO2 emmissions be cut?
We're still trying to put a lid on *more of the world finding the need to begin emitting as much as we do just as the developed world is trying to *cut* emissions. Many of these countries have yet to build a 'dirty' economic system, or are relying on things like cutting down major carbon sinks to get a year or two of farming out of them, just to subsist in the world economy. Some support for developing in a more sustainable way would actually go a *long* way to putting the brakes on the problems where they're still developing.

In fact, there's a lot of bang for the buck involved there, potentially.

Medium-term, our contribution toward that could *more* than pay back in terms of creating markets for our own 'green tech' (Or that of whoever develops it) down the road.

Some of it's just plain reparations, too. Others in the world have been and are far less insulated from the effects of the pollution the West and others have been profiting off producing all along.

To be quite honest, 'we' (read very-rich corporations we're supposed to somehow identify with) have *taken* a lot more than a hundred billion worth of what wasn't ours. From others, and from the future. I fail to see why the indignance about even a token effort to make it right as we go forward.

Frankly, the idea *you* will be 'taxed' over it is not borne out. Just a knee-jerk response when pundits say 'tax.' 'Wealth transfer.'

I call it *sharing a little.* Poorer countries shouldn't be forced to repeat our own mistakes on top of it all, to the future detriment of us all, ...just cause you have issues with anything someone calls 'commie' ...even if it means a future with a lot more waste and suffering in it, all for lack of the rest of us taking a little responsibility and helping make all this count for something.

How will it save us? It won't, on it's own. But it'll do a lot more than deniers standing around with their heads in the sand and their hands clamped in their back pockets.
12-19-2009, 10:22 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
How will it save us? It won't
Ok, I see that you're unable to see any quantifiable reduction in "greenhouse gasses" either. I'm really not interested in transferring wealth or making reparations to third world dictators in the name of saving the planet. We already spend a considerable chunk of change an foreign aid, thank you.
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