[Pål Jensen]

The only act of terrorism on Norwegian soil (except for the excecution of an innocent man - mistaken identity - by Mossad in the early 70's) is by americans sinking whaling ship in my home town....

Attached Images

   

[Ratmagiclady]

Well, I think we'd need the story, Pal, to know if that's 'terrorism' or just monkeywrenching. There's a lot of talk about 'eco-terrorism' but last I heard, no casualties, ever. I don't see any particular intent to 'terrorize' there: whatever you think of it, (I'm certainly not down with it) it's people trying to *actually stop the machine.*


Whatever one things about, say, scuttling that equipment in port, the 'terrorism' label tends to just inflame.

As to whether Norway's flagrantly violating international law by commercial whaling on a totally-shabby pretext of a 'research,' I haven't heard so much. That, whatever you may think of whale-hunts, just isn't hunting with any kind of respect, and to my mind, is inherently dishonorable, and no two ways about it.

It's been a while since I heard much about it, but I thought Norway, at least, is accepting whatever comes of simply not honoring that treaty.

[Pål Jensen]

It's been a while since I heard much about it, but I thought Norway, at least, is accepting whatever comes of simply not honoring that treaty.

"Norway’s legal right to hunt minke whales is not disputed, as Norway reserved its position on the temporary moratorium when it was adopted by the IWC. This reservation was made pursuant to Article V of the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling, the agreement on which the establishment and activities of the IWC are based. The moratorium is not legally binding on any member country today, as the Commission has not been willing to carry out the scientifically-based assessment that was a condition of continuing the moratorium beyond 1990.

The Convention was concluded, as stated in its preamble, "to provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and thus make possible the orderly development of the whaling industry". In other words, the objective of the Convention is not to protect whales for their own sake, but to regulate catches of whales in a way that safeguards the present and future interests of mankind. The position of IWC member countries that oppose whaling on principle and regardless of the size of the stocks concerned conflicts with the Commission's own objectives."


Norway is shooting a few hundred whales a year which is hardly an industry. This is mink whales which are not an endangered species. Norwegians have been hunting whales for 10 000 years. Norweiginas think they have the right to harvest their resources just like the natives of North America and Canada who also hunt whales and seals as they always have.
Hamburger eating americans should be more concerned about the animal wellfare of those poor creatures providing the meat....

[Ratmagiclady]

Well, that's cool, Pal. Japan's definitey on a whole other order of things, no question about that.

Of course, one would highly doubt the UN would be able to start declaring non-human species to be sapients, even if they wanted to. (Big issue right there: for starters, the word 'whales' covers a lot of ground,) Which doesn't, of course, mean that a certain amount of the general opposition to whaling doesn't come from *just* that sentiment/suspicion. It's frankly, not cause they're cuddly or something that people are real uncomfortable with the notion of treating these species like plain old resources, particularly to the point of risking extinction.

And you're not exactly talking to some Croakie-wearing Vegan here, of course. (It's kind of all about respect, in my view.) In fact, how I think even beef-cattle are best treated is very analagous: Norway's being a little more akin to 'traditional farming' than Japan's 'factory' operation in the guise of 'research.'

Not that hunting creatures to the brink of extinction is exactly great for your local whaling industry: ask a New Englander.

[redrockcoulee]

As much as I support the banning of whale hunting and cannot even seriously consider the Japanese claim of only for scientific purpose (how many whales must be killed to study their ecology for example NONE) I would like to mention something I seem to remember from my Conservation of Endangered Species course I took in the mid '80s The International Whaling Commission was the first group to protect a species from hunting. It may have been self interest but it was progressive and important

[ChatMechant]

Seems one thing people always whining about 'moral relativism' just don't get. This isn't a clump of cells or a political/religious ideology or a passage in a book. These are creatures that are *right there,* and of an order of experience you just don't take away without asking, any more than you'd think it was OK to blow away Mr. Spock if there was a market for Vulcan-blubber.

wow. vulcan blubber. that.... is priceless.

Hamburger eating americans should be more concerned about the animal wellfare of those poor creatures providing the meat....

I agree. hypocrisy is the greatest luxury. modern "factory farming" of animals would turn even the most hardcore meat-eater's stomach. consider that animal rights activists such as the sea shepherds view that happening to those animals no differently than other people feel about what happened during the holocaust, and you'll have an idea of why they do what they do. I have no problem with people hunting for food. doing that puts humans somewhat in the natural order(to a point.... it depends entirely on the motives) however, considering animals as a resource to be harvested is inevitably putting us outside of the natural order and that will never end well. ultimately any separation between us humans and our environment is an illusion.
okay now, terrorism Pal? nah. they damaged property. that's it. the whole M.O. of these activists is that they are protecting innocent living beings, no different than themselves. they don't kill people. humans are not on the menu any more than vulcan blubber. i've heard about 'eco-terrorists' being subject to the same punishments as real, scary terrorists, the kind that kill people. all because they cost somebody some money. that right there is real terrorism if you ask me.
the way we treat this earth, and the creatures on it, it's like we're at war with it.
personally, i think anyone who has the balls to do what the sea shepherds do is a far more evolved human than most of us.


IMO&E, etc.