[reeftool]

Be nice if you are correct, but I don't see too many kids worried about anything except their own materialistic needs....it is how we got where we are, and it is not getting better with the new generation, it is getting worse. So if your daughter is concerned about her fellow man and her country, good luck to her on finding someone else that shares her concerns. Meanwhile, if she is encouraged by the gov taking most of her earnings to pay for her parents excesses, I would be very shocked. Maybe she would like to give it a try by paying my wife's CC bills for a little sample of her future as a hard working benefactor of others?
Regards!

I will admit that my exposure to the younger generation is somewhat limited. I live in a small Adirondack town. Almost all the familys are blue collar and being self sufficient is a long tradition. When she went off to college, there were concerns by her and us alike if she would fit in to the culture of the eastern liberal arts college scene. While there are enough spoiled brats to go around, most of the kids at the school shared most of the same goals. I was surprised a couple of years ago when she mentioned that Ron Paul was the most popular presidential candidate in the early running, when he was still in the race. I did not expect to hear that. These kids know very well that we have left them a very messed up world.

[Ratmagiclady]

Frankly, Reeftool, the whole, 'The kids are only concerned with materialistic and hedonistic needs' thing, (while of course selling ruthless consumer-capitalism and competition with the other side of the tongue, ) ...is the same narrative they were using in the 80s, and long before, and always... directed at anyone *not* wanting to become a Yuppie with a displaced sense of moralism.


Big Religion is always looking at *me* ...trying to hurt my simple life with material harm on the grounds that I'm supposedly unspiritual and selfish for... Being spiritual and not cultivating material selfishness to come kneel and be contrite over.

That's about *an illusory sense of control.* So happens that some 'moral absolutists' benefit a *lot* from trying to make their flock get rich, be obsessed with unmet needs despite all their wealth and division and alienation... and then pay a handsome cut of the take, penitently, to help them try and make it worse.

I mean, look at it. They call it 'pro-family' to try and get queer gals to hold our noses and have sex... Without knowing about condoms, so we can then be punished for single motherhood or the broken homes that come of *so many of us trying to do exactly as they say to escape material and social harm they induce in the first place.*


Then wonder why 'sex sells.' 'Sex sells' only to those who have a big *hole* where their honest sexuality ought to be.

Up one side, down the other, then they say that those who won't *buy* it must of course be 'selfish and hedonistic,' when in fact, they themselves are trying to sell the idea that *life and humanity * is inherently selfish and hedonistic.

I actually have a lot of optimism for the smarts of much of the next generation: I only fear that they may lack the means to *do* much about it. And for any younger folks bothering to read this noise, I'm sorry we couldn't do better for you.

At least the nukes aren't ready to fly any given moment?

[Parallax]

Big Religion is always looking at *me* ...trying to hurt my simple life with material harm on the grounds that I'm supposedly unspiritual and selfish for... Being spiritual and not cultivating material selfishness to come kneel and be contrite over.

Just out of curiosity, RML; when you meet LGBT Christians do you embrace them for their lifestyle or hate them for being Christian. It must be terrible inner conflict for you.

[Ratmagiclady]

Just out of curiosity, RML; when you meet LGBT Christians do you embrace them for their lifestyle or hate them for being Christian. It must be terrible inner conflict for you.

There's a wonderful thing about not-thinking like that.

Doesn't even come up.

Actually, sweetie and I hang out with a couple of gay guys who are Christians, ...they aren't in a very comfortable position, themselves, mind you, but it certainly doesn't mean that there's a generational problem where the kids are once again selfish and materialistic cause we didn't all four of us 'give up our lifestyle,' get married, have sex without condoms, and call the inevitable *disasters* ' pro-life and 'defending the family.'

That's not even, like, *real.*

(And this is one thing the *next generation *gets.** That's why the Right has been going all out to stall progress and polarize people about our simple lives for *decades.* Hurt us materially at every possible turn cause they think that'll make us 'holy,' if we have enough material 'incentive' and *damage* to *lie.* Diddlysquat.)

Contrary to what you and squirrel-man say, I don't *hate* Christianity, just what many people do to each other with it. My own religion isn't out looking for 'converts.' (No such thing, really, in our world: if people change labels and Gods without realizing there's a lot more to it, you get whacked-out skinheads or some kind of heavy-metal thing. No, thanks. ) I usually make it a point to find some Christian clergy that it's safe to refer/introduce people to, when they're dealing with certain crises, actually.

Personally, I think being a queer Christian is just begging for more abuse, but abuse is nothing to be making spiritual decisions about. Where to kneel and who before, though, definitely. If I wished you ill, and thought in the terms you accuse me of, I'd not be talking to you, just paying out the rope. I don't wish you ill. I just want you to know you actually have neighbors.

Funny thing is, Pagans wouldn't even be such a household word these days if you hadn't been defaming us so hard for the past twenty years. We don't proselytize, but we do not care to be *lied* about.

But, here we are, another million-and-change Americans that *someone* just happens to want to use as a political wedge, or collateral damage for their theocratic marketing ambitions.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 02-03-2010 at 12:19 PM.

[reeftool]

Being selfish and materialistic are certainly not Christian principles. I fail to see how you have managed to match the two up. As a Christian, I can understand how you may be disturbed by the vocal finger pointers who seem to have forgotten where they came from. Ignore them. Christianity is about forgiveness and healing, not a political agenda.

[Rupert]

Being selfish and materialistic are certainly not Christian principles. I fail to see how you have managed to match the two up. As a Christian, I can understand how you may be disturbed by the vocal finger pointers who seem to have forgotten where they came from. Ignore them. Christianity is about forgiveness and healing, not a political agenda.

"Christianity is about forgiveness and healing, not a political agenda"

It should be, but unfortunately, it isn't that way anymore. Preachers and their congregations spend way too much of their time supporting political agendas....like prayer groups nationwide that were meeting to pray together during the presidential campaign that God would "take Obama", or at the very least rain record amounts on his Denver stadium event. I saw it first hand in my own Church......it is why I no longer attend.
While I agree very little with the Ratlady or her "religion" or "lifestyle", too many Churches spend too much time demonizing and not enough time looking at the mote in their own eyes. Personally, I think they are blinded by their own hypocrisy. When the Rapture comes, if you want to stay on this earth, the safest place may be in a Church on a Sunday morning.....few there, if any, will ever know it happened.
Regards!

[Parallax]

While I agree very little with the Ratlady or her "religion" or "lifestyle", too many Churches spend too much time demonizing and not enough time looking at the mote in their own eyes. Personally, I think they are blinded by their own hypocrisy. When the Rapture comes, if you want to stay on this earth, the safest place may be in a Church on a Sunday morning.....few there, if any, will ever know it happened.
Regards!

I like that, Rupert. It makes want to listen to "When the Man Comes Around" by Johnny Cash. In fact, I think I'll do just that.

[reeftool]

I disassociated myself from the "religious right" crowd long ago and have never participated in their agenda. They have become the Pharisees of the 21st century. They want to hold others to a standard they can't live up to themselves. The message of Christianity has never changed. The problem is that some have made their own message and hung the Christian sign on it.

[Rupert]

I disassociated myself from the "religious right" crowd long ago and have never participated in their agenda. They have become the Pharisees of the 21st century. They want to hold others to a standard they can't live up to themselves. The message of Christianity has never changed. The problem is that some have made their own message and hung the Christian sign on it.

Ruined it for the many that could benefit from the teachings of Jesus and perhaps make eternal changes in their own life. Not many want to hear a preacher rant on the dangers of a party or candidate if they came to seek refuge from the ravages of life. Christian teachings are admirable and life changing, but you seldom hear them any more because of the overriding sound of politics. Right wing or left, it kills the spirit of Christianity. When you hear the words "I used to be a sinner...." you know you are not hearing a Christian. I only have to look in the mirror to know that I am a sinner....no political party can ever make me whole.
Regards!

[dosdan]

When you hear the words "I used to be a sinner...." you know you are not hearing a Christian. I only have to look in the mirror to know that I am a sinner...

Rupert, I respectfully disagree. Since religious topics are now allowed in this forum, let me ask you a question. If you died today, would you be accepted by God or not? If the answer is "Yes" (i.e. you believe the atoning sacrifice of the Lamb was sufficient to cleanse you of your sin, past, present & future) then you are not a sinner in God's eyes.

Rom. 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". That is true, but it not longer applies once we come to Christ, because we are a "new creation" (2 Cor 5:17).

A few months ago, I met a Baptist Korean missionary in a shopping centre and we started to talk. He asked me if I was a sinner. I replied that, while I often sin, I no longer consider myself a sinner because the blood of the Lamb has washed me clean. I try to see myself as God sees me - as completely righteous because I'm wrapped in Christ's Robe of Righteousness. That's why I can now say "Abba, Father" and be acceptable in His eyes.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace

I know that the flesh & the Spirit are in war in me, but I trust that the good work that He has started in me, He will complete. (Phil 1:6)

The Korean missionary told me that my attitude was unusual in the Christians he had met in Australia - too many of them saw themselves still as sinners.

I believe we shouldn't dwell on our weaknesses & the times we fall short of His glory. That's defeatist and living under the deadening burden of the Law.

Live under Grace! Trust that the the Holy Spirit is at work in us and that we are now His, lock, stock & barrel, and that the Good Shepherd will look after His sheep.

Ps 94:18 If I say, “My foot slips,” Your mercy, O Lord, will hold me up.

Ps 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delights in his way.Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord upholds him with His hand.


Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Please read my knol on "The Salvation of Blind Bartimaeus" to understand my take on Christ's Robe of Righteousness: http://knol.google.com/k/dan-bridges...ind-bartimaeus

To paraphrase the bumper sticker: "Not perfect (except in God's eyes), just forgiven".

Dan.

[dylansalt]

Dan - thanks that was great

[Rupert]

Rupert, I respectfully disagree. Since religious topics are now allowed in this forum, let me ask you a question. If you died today, would you be accepted by God or not? If the answer is "Yes" (i.e. you believe the atoning sacrifice of the Lamb was sufficient to cleanse you of your sin, past, present & future) then you are not a sinner in God's eyes.

Rom. 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". That is true, but it not longer applies once we come to Christ, because we are a "new creation" (2 Cor 5:17).

A few months ago, I met a Baptist Korean missionary in a shopping centre and we started to talk. He asked me if I was a sinner. I replied that, while I often sin, I no longer consider myself a sinner because the blood of the Lamb has washed me clean. I try to see myself as God sees me - as completely righteous because I'm wrapped in Christ's Robe of Righteousness. That's why I can now say "Abba, Father" and be acceptable in His eyes.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace

I know that the flesh & the Spirit are in war in me, but I trust that the good work that He has started in me, He will complete. (Phil 1:6)

The Korean missionary told me that my attitude was unusual in the Christians he had met in Australia - too many of them saw themselves still as sinners.

I believe we shouldn't dwell on our weaknesses & the times we fall short of His glory. That's defeatist and living under the deadening burden of the Law.

Live under Grace! Trust that the the Holy Spirit is at work in us and that we are now His, lock, stock & barrel, and that the Good Shepherd will look after his sheep.

Ps 94:18 If I say, “My foot slips,” Your mercy, O Lord, will hold me up.

Ps 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delights in his way.Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord upholds him with His hand.


Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Please read my knol on "The Salvation of Blind Bartimaeus" to understand my take on Christ's Robe of Righteousness: http://knol.google.com/k/dan-bridges...ind-bartimaeus

To paraphrase the bumper sticker: "Not perfect (except in God's eyes), just forgiven".

Dan.

Dan, I appreciate the scripture, and do not disagree in most of what you said, but make no mistake about it you are a sinner, just like all of us. If you weren't you would never need forgiveness, and yet you need forgiveness every day of your life. When I meet a non-sinner, I first grab my a wallet, and then look for the nearest exit. Now while God can make your sins vanish from His view, He does not allow you to continue to sin with a blind eye. So I would be very careful about not being a sinner unless I was in the middle of a prayer of forgiveness...and by the time that prayer was over, I would definitely need to be starting a new one to catch up.
Regards!

[krypticide]

I find it funny that it's taken so long for mainstream media to pick up on this trend that has already been in motion for many many years. The US is like the Titanic, and we've just spotted the iceberg.

I'm definitely more pessimistic about the future. Students are getting lazier and more entitled; many of them spend their time on Facebook in class, even at esteemed universities like Stanford. They whine and bitch when they get bad grades, and professors become too lenient due to the repercussions of teaching evaluations.

What's worse is that immigrants have less incentive to stay here. In the past, the US was the land of opportunity: people came here to settle. Now, most of my international classmates plan to go back to their home countries. Expect increasing brain drains overseas in the coming years.

In summary, we're screwed, I don't see any evidence that the ship will right itself anytime soon, but some of us will still do just fine.

[Rupert]

I find it funny that it's taken so long for mainstream media to pick up on this trend that has already been in motion for many many years. The US is like the Titanic, and we've just spotted the iceberg.

I'm definitely more pessimistic about the future. Students are getting lazier and more entitled; many of them spend their time on Facebook in class, even at esteemed universities like Stanford. They whine and bitch when they get bad grades, and professors become too lenient due to the repercussions of teaching evaluations.

What's worse is that immigrants have less incentive to stay here. In the past, the US was the land of opportunity: people came here to settle. Now, most of my international classmates plan to go back to their home countries. Expect increasing brain drains overseas in the coming years.

In summary, we're screwed, I don't see any evidence that the ship will right itself anytime soon, but some of us will still do just fine.

Not an unreasonable set of observations. Many illegals where I live have gone back to Mexico because of the poor economy and a lack of any real future opportunity here. Sure, some cream will always rise to the top, so those that still work hard and get good grades and excel will always find success, but it may be more elusive than ever. To me it is a reflection of a lack of values, not particularly Christian values, just human values that we have slid so far down the slippery slope of self-interest and materialism. Will we recover? I don't see it, but I am no optimist when it comes to the depths of human self degradation.
Regards!

[Ratmagiclady]

I disassociated myself from the "religious right" crowd long ago and have never participated in their agenda. They have become the Pharisees of the 21st century. They want to hold others to a standard they can't live up to themselves. The message of Christianity has never changed. The problem is that some have made their own message and hung the Christian sign on it.

Well, I sympathize, but frankly, the 'bad guys' say the same thing about you or about anyone who questions them.

I suppose that's nothing, new, either: it's usually the same people who end up hurting from one idea of 'it's always been this way...' with a lot of moderate folks saying, "Oh, that's not real Christianity, so it doesn't matter if we turn a blind eye to stuff like this:"

Holy Bullies and Headless Monsters: Religious right showing hostile new militancy against the lgbt community Or Uganda itself,

Or this one: Pam's House Blend:: Iowa Republicans Want To Exclude LGBTQ Students From Safe Schools Law


That's just a start on *today's* news I woke up to.

How about yesterday's story, when it came out that the notoriously Fundie-supremacist Air Force Academy, which has made some efforts to stop having non-Evangelicals be used merely for conversion targets and subject to institutional abuse, took some steps to accommodate others, even setting up some stones for an outdoor circle area for people of Earth-religions, ...only to have someone desecrate it by sticking a big cross in it to intimidate those who might want to use it. Problem solved? Not quite, it seems.

So much of the trouble in this country comes directly from Christian Right radicals, and so much of it is enabled by those who simply deny it's really happening, or really matters, or is really all that wrong to begin with, even if moderates would never want to say that's what they approve of, they're still claimed as people the wingnuts are speaking for: the mainstream media still let these people come on the air and present themselves as much more moderate than they *say* they are in other venues.

Lets them get *away* with telling the country that's what Christianity is about, and ...frankly, if the default consensus seems to be 'Oh, well, 'moderation' would be, maybe, half as much uncalled for injustice, abuse and defamation as the Dominionists want, you should settle for that, minorities, and accept our innate righteousness and 'One True Way,' even if we can't seem to agree on what that is....'


Somehow, it seems, a lot of us out here are expected to do nothing if there's the slightest scientific doubt that policies and practices are as harmful to innocent people and the world as they seem, yet take some kind of innate supernaturally-ordained moral inferiority on faith in *someone else's religious demands.*

Somehow, it seems that if people cry out about the uncalled for injustice, oppression, and abuse too many claim to have the right to perpetrate on anyone they please, even through the power of our own government or someone else's... then you're told, "Oh, they just 'Hate Christianity' for some *completely incomprehensible and of course baseless reason. That's cause they're evil, not-like you, and are only being what we consider worthy of abuse, which isn't happening, but is righteous, because of some elaborate conspiracy to destroy you."

It's not hatred, though, Reeftool, ....it's *outrage.*

People didn't seem to take it seriously when I mentioned that the Ugandan thing was exported from here and that some would be very happy to reimport it. Now we have a national politician suggesting the solution to the 'gay problem' is to criminalize us here in America.

Where are you 'moderates' for this? Tsk, tsking?