[Rupert]

Dan, I think you do use it as a crutch. What that tells me is that you are smart enough to use available resources to make your life better. A light meter is a crutch for people who need help setting proper exposure. Watching football, or baseball is a crutch some people use to divert their attention from the mundanities of daily life. Some people use atheism is a crutch to help them deal with all manor of demons. Some have experienced or seen some terrible tragedy that "surely would not have happened if there were a God"; some are jealous of those who do believe so by being adamant that there is no God then there is nothing to be jealous of. Is religion a crutch? ABSOLUTELY and I wish I were able to use it more effectively than I am.

Hmmm...so you are one of those "fall short" guys? Me too! I never quite reach the potential that is there waiting for me....I always stumble...and it is always over myself. Still, you keep going, being low on gas is better than being on empty.
Regards!

[Ratmagiclady]

Hi, Dan. (Sorry to bail on the discussion for yesterday, but a) taking this kind of stuff slowly seems to be a lot more productive here, and b) Well, the computer's been less than functioning-well while c) Haha. A gig or two I can manage have appeared.


One thing I can't help but notice here, though, is that what you've said above isn't talking to me, or addressing how people like me are treated, but rather.. some argument with atheists and atheism. To justify... What? Thinking what you get out of it is *worth* not-opposing certain tyrannies that may harm me and later... Come after you?

Atheist?

I'm not that, not by a *long* shot.

Why are you arguing as if I'm an *atheist?*

I do think better of you than that.

Everyone, or almost everyone, anyway, has personal tragedies. Many of mine are from someone taking a story like yours, from your heart, and using it to validate some of them. I had *my* child taken from me, not so different a child from the one Rupert shows us all these pictures of.. Cause someone said it was *your* way of seeing the world or nothing: that ...if anyone's to find solace or if there's to be anything spiritual or holy about the world or life at all, that it must come at the price of someone else losing their children to satisfy Paul's homophobia or whatever.

I've read your book cover-to-cover, you know. ..didn't make any sense at all, most of it. Jesus, yeah, much of that. What it turned into and what was made of it, no.


I thought I was an 'atheist' too, until I *stopped letting Christians tell me what religion was.*


I honor a very patient Lady. She was always there, but never *pushed* any kind of thing like that that was to me some nightmare of 'Religion.'

The operative irony there is that for a few to sell someone the idea 'you can be saved,' they use the tactic of first making you *fear you are otherwise bound to be lost.*

And that's where the ugly stuff happens.

It's not about 'crutches are bad.' (By implication: weakness or injury is bad, scorn the injured, then count yourself wonderful for only mocking them somewhat, maybe call it 'tough love,' when it's relaly just kicking someone in the knee a lot. ) WTF is that supposed to mean to someone they keep putting in the hospital?


What in the Mother's name is *that* supposed to mean to someone who personally went among the sick and destitute... By being them... Thinks going out and doing what's to be done "in the name of Gods" you find and proclaim scary and evil... Some of you lie about, even, ... Well, isn't about doing things 'in the Names of Gods' as such ...(ie, advertising) after all? Not so's anyone should know, anyway.

The Gods I swear by didn't say other people's suffering is some 'means to an end.' Fundies call my people 'uncharitable' cause we simply see nothing virtuous about *advertising*

Good people that some will say must be horrible cause we might not be proclaiming that some book by some man interpreted by some other man must always and forever make eternally-righteous whatever bigotry they thought would push the blame off on last week.

Gods know how many times someone called me 'Angel' or said, 'Jesus sent you,' ....usually it's no time to be f'n argue theology. or even say, 'Well, not necessarily, but I'm sure our Gods would be great friends, at least about this particular situation.'


That's not something you do that about.

Someone turning around and saying, "Only people willing to appear to be governed by my assumptions can possibly be not-evil?"

Oh, yeah, then we got a problem with those who think themselves mighty, and worship 'Absolute Power.'


Parallax says this:

Dan, I think you do use it as a crutch. What that tells me is that you are smart enough to use available resources to make your life better. A light meter is a crutch for people who need help setting proper exposure. Watching football, or baseball is a crutch some people use to divert their attention from the mundanities of daily life. Some people use atheism is a crutch to help them deal with all manor of demons. Some have experienced or seen some terrible tragedy that "surely would not have happened if there were a God"; some are jealous of those who do believe so by being adamant that there is no God then there is nothing to be jealous of. Is religion a crutch? ABSOLUTELY and I wish I were able to use it more effectively than I am.

But is there an atheist in the house?

Someone taught you that "It's between my 'One True Way' Merciful, Ture, Absolute, Or Else," ... Or *nothing.*

You bet atheists are cheesed off, these days, and rightly so, but I'm the furthest thing from an atheist.

From my point of view, you're the *next thing to* an atheist. You disbelieve in all Gods but one 'narrow,' but infinitely-rationalizeable view of him at that, and there very conditionally.

As I said, before, too, you seem to assent to the view that only an 'Intelligent design' could make a universe unfair by the very standards you impose upon it, one at which you might just 'win' at if you're obedient enough... But if that's the 'design,' it seems that design is oddly-compliant, not to reality, but to the particular damage of one Saul of Tarsus, who we just happen to have on your own 'authority,' was a complete bastard to a lot of people till he changed targets.

[Parallax]

Hmmm...so you are one of those "fall short" guys? Me too! I never quite reach the potential that is there waiting for me....I always stumble...and it is always over myself. Still, you keep going, being low on gas is better than being on empty.
Regards!

In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

RML you can pray to whatever gods you want. But there is only One who defeated death and is risen.

[Parallax]

RML you can pray to whatever gods or demons you want. But there is only One who defeated death and is risen.

Fixed it for ya, George.

[Rupert]

The one person that had some kind words for the Ratlady...and she beats him to a pulp......and she wants a little slack around here...yeah right! Mean spirited people come in all shapes and sizes and include some of those LGBT's, no doubt about it. When looking for mercy, don't look my way.....I'm betting that if the majority of LBGT's could vote on it, they would send the Ratlady to a "get straight camp" and hope they never heard from her again.
Regards

[dosdan]

Ratmagiclady, I addressed my response to you knowing you are a pagan, but it's the same response I'd also give to an atheist or agnostic.

You say my view of God is "narrow". Well Jesus, told us that "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way" (Matt. 7:13 NLT) and "Jesus told him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me' " (John 14:6 NLT). I believe it's a New Age heresy that there are lots of paths that lead to God, that you can worship whatever god or gods you like including a statue, piece of wood or gold, a moon goddess or nature itself. Or just "lead a good life - don't hurt anyone - that's enough."

I don't believe any of us can earn a heavenly ticket. All we can do is accept Jesus for what He said he was. When Philip asked to see the Father, Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?" (John 14:9). Here's the amazing part about the whole salvation thing: it's not about how good & perfect we are (otherwise there would be no Christians in heaven); it's about how good & perfect He is.

Want to talk about gross unfairness? Talk about grace. In the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matt. 20:1-16) Jesus told a story about the workers who have toiled for a long time receiving exactly the same reward as the workers who start just before the end. We believe that reward is salvation. None of us earn it; it is given to those who repent, accept the gift and who understand the way it was gained for us (the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross). That example of the child murder, who I mentioned previously, if he repents on his/her death bed, is saved just the same as a humble pastor who has spent 60 years in back-breaking ministry. That's it for the gift of salvation. We believe there will be other rewards for those who have toiled, suffered & given much in the name of Jesus, but the "big one" (salvation) is free.

You mention your child being taken from you. That's a terrible thing to happen. Terrible things do happen in life, and many of them are performed by Christians, Muslims & Hindus. I know well that God doesn't seem to answer the "Why?" questions. Job in the Bible never knew why he suffered so. Or the man born blind who Jesus went on to heal:

"Rabbi," his disciples asked him, "why was this man born blind? Was it because of his own sins or his parents' sins?"
Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:3-4)

I've learnt instead to ask the "What?" question, namely "God, what do you want me to learn from this experience?" That's made me a more humble person.

I take it that you've suffered persecution because of your sexuality. Will there be homosexuals in heaven? Most certainly, along with tax collectors & church ministers. Will you be there? Only you and God know the answer to that. The responsibility is in your hands. You have the gift of free will. Do I have to convince you? No, I just present (hopefully in a humble fashion) what I believe is the Truth (as much as has been revealed to me in the Word of God). I or others plant a seed, someone else waters it, God willing, that seed will grow.

Humility however is not to be confused with uncertainty - Jesus is the absolute Truth.
Wordly wisdom says: "Don't play all your eggs in one basket" and "Don't count your chickens before they hatch".
With Christian faith it's the opposite: “Putting all your eggs in God's basket, then counting your blessings before they hatch” (Romona C. Carroll), because:

"God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful" (1 Cor. 1:27 NLT)

I never thought I'd be a Christian either, but God had a plan for me.

Dan.

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Last edited by dosdan; 02-07-2010 at 02:31 AM.

[wildman]

In life, more often than not, there are no answers - only choices.

Certainty can be a very dangerous thing.

[Ratmagiclady]

You see, Dan, this is where it becomes perilous for us all to start injecting religion into *politics.* How can you have a functioning democracy when you have so many people claiming to have a 'higher truth' ...that they know better than I do what my religion is, what my sexuality is about... Perhaps we should take a vote who'll be the 'Witch-finder General?' Who burned at the stake?
Funny, but it's the Evangelicals who feel it's OK to pray for liberals to die or fail... so they can have control. One thinks an objective observer would be looking more in that direction for who's with the bad juju.

I'm sure you're a very nice person, but I'm not a character out of your book. I'm a real person and an American citizen.

I don't 'worship pieces of wood or gold' or whatever some ancient propaganda says... There's an easier and more reliable way to find out. *Ask,* instead of divining from your book and propaganda...and *pronouncing* what others believe or don't believe.

Frankly, the Religious Right plays it fast and loose with the truth, the law, and even our own history, as they try to dismantle freedom for all, entwine your religion with political power and corruption, and supply an endless succession of scapegoats for people to fear.

Trying to claim I don't have a faith, or don't have a 'real' one, or tht I have an 'evil' one... Is that the truth? No. It's what someone found convenient when they needed to propagandize against their neighbors. And still find it convenient and self-serving for their political ambitions: but it has a huge corrupting influence on both religion *and* politics.

We can and should bring our *conscience* to government, but the *means* of government must be the use of as much reason, facts, and *reality* as we can manage, not this hysteria, division, and all too often, mass manipulation and deception.

Right now, the Religious Right is trying to get a court in California to rule that only certain monotheist religions are "real" ones... You really want the government deciding what constitutes 'real' religion? What'll it be next, what constitutes that 'Real' Christianity you guys are always talking about but can never agree on?

I know the *why* my child was taken from me: people said that 'God' thought one Mommy was better than two. And all manner of very real things done by *people* who do not keep their motivations a secret.

People who will lie to my face about my own life, and claim to have the 'Ultimate Truth' and therefore some right to 'dominion' or 'more equality' than me? People who claim that 'Oh, religious freedom just means I can have dominion over my neighbor. It's taking something away from me if others have equality! It's taking something away from me if I can't say I know better what someone's life is about, without even meeting them, cause I'm Superior, bi Gott!'

Anyway, it's not the best morning to try and get into theology (Picked myself up a pretty nasty headcold out there yesterday) ..but it's actually pretty clear that a lot of the Evangelicals here either aren't paying attention, or simply can't understand that not everyone's religion is based on trying to take over the world, or escaping some existential fear based in someone else's worldview to begin with, or trying to escape some Hell that's also.. From the same source as those claiming to solve the problem, (Convenient, isn't it?) ...It seems clear that you're not qualified to even figure *out* what my faith is about, never mind (or perhaps because you do) claim it's 'evil,' 'trivial' ..etc, ) ...but you seem to feel perfectly qualified to try and tell me what my own religion is, regardless.

That's why *real* freedom of religion is most precious to those who are actually *using it.*

That's why we have separation of Church and State in America, and religious liberty for *all.* Cause our nations' founders knew darn well from their own recent history where anything less takes people.

The simple fact is, if someone proclaims special, unquestionable authority to say there's some 'hell' they're saving others from, they tend to say that whatever they do to you is actually some kind of mercy by comparison, or by some strange logic I never quite could fathom, one that says people who are 'damned anyway' are fair game for whatever horrors or abuses they care to perpetrate. That *certainly* doesn't belong anywhere near government power.

But, did you notice, guys? Those 'religious Right' types that some don't want to be associated with... Seem to have someone getting you to attack the ones who point out the problems, ...I don't hear you guys ever confronting *them* about their injustices.

[Rupert]

Just after reading that rant against Christians, but just before compacting in my new Industrial Garbage Machine, the thought crossed my mind........I just couldn't imagine why you have so much trouble with those "Fundies"? It couldn't be anything you say...could it? I mean, if they ranted against you like you rant agaunst them, I could understand...but they don't, except in your mind. They just simply don't like you, don't think you have an moral ground to stand on, and think you are unworthy to raise children...imagine that! Now I am not taking sides on that issue, it was setteld in a court of law....you do respect the law, don't you? If you want to provide us with the transcripts, maybe you will gain some allies here.....wanna try it?
Regards!