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02-03-2010, 01:10 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
'Phil I've had a pedal stick in my old Pontiac. It over heated the brakes before I got to 50. I shut her down. That car didn't have rev limiters and the engine cost me a heck of a lot of time to build.'

I can't argue with that. Many older domestics had really $hitty brakes, especially the drum variety and very much so with trucks. Most modern cars (discs) will overcome engine HP as well as vehicle inerta fine. If they won't come to an absolute stop they will get the speed down to something very low. Lots of variables of course vehicle load included, but most modern ones will do it fine. It's easy enough to try out. Vacuum boosted brakes can loose the vacuum boost eventually as the throttle remains partial or wide open. It does take more pedal pressure of course. There is still neutral and the key back ups.

RML's example of the CHP family car at 120 MPH I just don't believe the car could not be stopped. I can be wrong but that one sounds like a few of the old Audi claims that were all debunked. It may have happened but certainly the driver factors in there real big. If someone had time to call 911 and have conversation time, I think the driver perhaps should not have been driving anything.

I made it down from the top of Mt Haleakala Maui with no brakes in a Renta-a-Wreck (domestic) rental speaking of $hitty brakes.
Phil they weren't crap brakes. Even in the clip on the news the guy from toyoda said the brakes wouldn't stop the car with the pedal stuck. One of the talk show guys played a 911 clip where the guy was standing on the brakes and the car wouldn't stop. Wound up crashing and killing the entire family. When my pedal got stuck I was pumping heavy HP to the wheels. The engine was able to wheely the car.


Last edited by graphicgr8s; 02-03-2010 at 01:18 PM.
02-03-2010, 01:13 PM   #17
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'With the Audis, it was about not being in reverse. People starting to jump forward, thinking they were in reverse, and trying to go 'more backward' By stomping the gas.'

I worked for them (factory) and the issue was unintended accelleration meaning the car aquired super God-like power and was unstoppable going forward. I have heard of no cases going backwards. The CBS program's notorious example was a minister's wife unfortunatly killing a child by pinning it against a garage wall. It turns out and later admitted that she was turned to the rear seat tending a child back there with the engine running, in a forward gear and her foot slipped off the brake pedal and she mashed the gas pedal to the floor. CBS panned in on the tire rubber marks on the garage floor. Very sad situation of course but the vehicle was not at fault. Audi made a video of a full throttle test with a turbo model in a glass windowed showroom. They then took it on the road and filmed a number of full throttle at speed situations where the brakes always overcame a full throttle and the vehicle's speed situation repeatedly. This, I recall, went up to about 100++MPH.

Then the deluge of law suits and sap sucking attorneys from every flake that had a parking lot foot mix up. Mercedes even got them. The Pres of Mercedes at the time told one local know-it-all friends' Ferrari driving on occasion air line plane driver to go see his insurance co. Which was a correct response.
02-03-2010, 01:20 PM   #18
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People did in fact crash their cars. Guess they imagined it.

*looking at bloody wreckage.* "That shouldn't have happened, you faker! "
02-03-2010, 02:59 PM   #19
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I had such a "runaway experience" a long time ago, just when I got my drivers licence. At that time we drove an old Fiat which had a fully mechanical gas pedal. The spring, which sets the gas pedal back, broke, while driving on the motorway and the car kept accelerating (within its capabilities). It was pretty scary for a split second. Then I took out the gear, turned the key to shut off the engine and steered on to the bylane, where I stopped the car easily.

It is not more difficult today, to stop a seemingly "runaway" Toyota.

Ben

02-03-2010, 03:03 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
I had such a "runaway experience" a long time ago, just when I got my drivers licence. At that time we drove an old Fiat which had a fully mechanical gas pedal. The spring, which sets the gas pedal back, broke, while driving on the motorway and the car kept accelerating (within its capabilities). It was pretty scary for a split second. Then I took out the gear, turned the key to shut off the engine and steered on to the bylane, where I stopped the car easily.

It is not more difficult today, to stop a seemingly "runaway" Toyota.

Ben
Maybe those who drive toyodas just aren't as quick witted. Or not as smart. I don't know.
02-03-2010, 03:14 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
I had such a "runaway experience" a long time ago,
Ben
So did I.. Ford, in the early 1990s late 1980s stopped providing floor mats with the Thunderbird, as in they were not available as an option. The problem was that if you pressed the accelerator pedal too much it would get stuck on the floor mat holding it in place at near wide open throttle. Trust me, the brakes could slow the car down but there was no way in hell they would stop it. I left the floor mats I had purchased in the parking lot where I finally got the car under control.

The first instinct of most in a runaway situation is to panic. Same thing as when someone hits an ice patch on the highway. Most will instinctively put on the brakes, causing the wheels to lock up sending the car into an uncontrolled slip, spin, and sometimes flip. Reaction will of course greatly dictate the outcome.

Maybe it's just me, but I still prefer a mechanical (cable) connection between the pedal and the throttle body. I've never trusted Drive by Wire.
02-03-2010, 03:16 PM   #22
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I can understand maybe being in city traffic and not having enough time to react, but how in the hell can you be out on the highway and not be able to react in the time it took someone in the car to call 911 and explain the problem? In the incident I'm referring to the driver was a police officer. Some ostensibly trained to handle stressful situations and in emergency driving techniques. Nobody ever knows for sure how they will react in a crisis, but of all of these incidents I've read about this is the one I would have thought the least likely to end badly.
02-03-2010, 05:20 PM   #23
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What happens if you are one of those misfortunate individuals with a Prius and the accelerator sticks and your brakes fail?

Prius brakes questioned; Toyota probe expands - Yahoo! News


I guess the silver lining in the cloud is that you will probably only be going 30 mph.

Edit: linked AP article


Last edited by Blue; 02-03-2010 at 09:37 PM.
02-03-2010, 07:22 PM   #24
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Sorry phil, I've been in the unintended acceleration situation. THe linked video is of a prius. Not exactly the most horsepower there, and it has brake pads as well as regenerative brakes.


My car was significantly more powerful than a prius, and had good brakes. See, when you stop your car form 50mph, you stop pressing the accelerator. Pressing the brakes, will buy you time, and make it a bit less scary for a bit, but on many cars, it will not stoip the car. Especially with the horsepower wars on boring sedans. Yeah, 260hp plus cheap brakes in a camry could get downright scary.

In my case, I kept my wits about me, stomped on the brakes, didn't feel like grenading my engine by throwing it in neutral, and gave yanking on the gas pedal a shot. It worked. Had it not, I'd have waved bye bye to my engine and hoped the rev limiter did it's job.

My current car has a fly by wire throttle. It's basically the same as a cable design, except no cable, and it's attached to what I assume is a rheostat in a plastic housing hanging off the side. Unlike toyota's design which has about the stupidest design ever, and is made out of hygroscopic plastic that swells to save a buck (probably less than a buck).
02-03-2010, 07:49 PM   #25
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This whole thing is just overblown crapola. GM trucks and Ford Crown Victoria's with exploding gas tanks are still out there on the strets by the tens of thousands......where is the FIX News stories on those? CBS? NBC? ABC? Just an opportunity to bash Toyota, a maker of cars with a good record and high customer satisfaction in an attempt to build up the posture of a failed GM and a Ford on very shaky ground.
So when this problem with Toyota is repaired...traffic deaths will decrease significantly...right? Drivers will become better skilled and the sky will stop falling?
Regards!
02-04-2010, 06:02 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
This whole thing is just overblown crapola. GM trucks and Ford Crown Victoria's with exploding gas tanks are still out there on the strets by the tens of thousands......where is the FIX News stories on those? CBS? NBC? ABC? Just an opportunity to bash Toyota, a maker of cars with a good record and high customer satisfaction in an attempt to build up the posture of a failed GM and a Ford on very shaky ground.
So when this problem with Toyota is repaired...traffic deaths will decrease significantly...right? Drivers will become better skilled and the sky will stop falling?
Regards!
Rupert, I personally think, that ofcourse there is a lot of media hype going on for a problem, that is not exactly earth shattering. They need a hot headline every day…

On the other hand I also think, that this kind of hype is not the least caused by the culture of claiming excessively high damages via the US courts for annoying technolopgical mistakes, magnified by user stupidity. Anybody who had driving lessons should know, how to shut off the engine while driving, without locking the steering wheel. Anybody smoking cigarettes during the last couple of decades should know exactly, how he is ruining his/her health - no reason (for me) to go to court.

But we will sure see a very expensive court action going on against Toyota in the US. And this is also (quite, as you indicate) launched by the interests of the US car makers to re-conquer their home market for their inferior domestic products. There are reasons beyond bad marketing, that US cars do not sell well at all in most Western countries. And throwing dirt onto successful rivals is easier and cheaper, than trying to improve products. We have seen similar campaigns going against Audi and Merceds in the past and now it's Toyota.

DESPITE all that, I still think, that Toyota needs to act very fast, needs to be honest about the details of this design or production mistake and should do anything to rectify this for existing customers.

Ben
02-04-2010, 07:57 AM   #27
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My understanding of this issue, talking with another mechanic who has dealt with a couple of these prior to all the recent media reports, is that often when this problem shows up, the car can't be shut off. The short somehow is bypassing the keyswitch circuits in some instances which is why the Govt. is now looking into the issue. Yes, just turning the key off should kill the engine. It doesn't happen. This was told to me by another wrench turner, not some guy on TV. I'm a heavy truck and regrigeration guy, not a car guy so I don't have hands on experience with Toyota's. I have seen similar electrical failures on trucks so I don't doubt this at all. Fortunately, all our thucks have standard transmissions and a simple step on the clutch would stop it from running away.
02-09-2010, 09:05 PM   #28
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Accelerator, brakes and now steering issues . . .

Toyota Corolla steering problems prompt complaints to feds - Drive On: A conversation about the cars and trucks we drive - USATODAY.com


Concerns may be fueled by the previous steering problems of the 4runners and T-100 pickups.

The Investigation of the Toyota Steering Rod Recall ? Defective Truck Part


At least Toyoda is "manning up" on it.

QuoteQuote:
"I don't see Toyota as an infallible company that never makes mistakes," President Akio Toyoda said at a press conference Tuesday in Tokyo. "We will face up to the facts and correct the problem, putting customers' safety and convenience first."
Toyota Recalls 437,000 Prius, Hybrids Globally - Auto - FOXNews.com
02-09-2010, 09:53 PM   #29
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Toyotas

Watched a show on pintos once....
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