[Ratmagiclady]

Its an interesting discussion...so far.

What I find particualrly interesting is the fact that for the last 15 years or more, it has been frowned upon to smack your children or to discipline by force....and this has increased in its fervour in more recent times, even culmintaing in some places making it illegal to smack a child.

So if smacking was the root cause of all these problem children.....should not we be seeing an improvement in behavioural patterns by children under 15 years????

Cause, for one, it hasn't actually *stopped?*

Cause, for another, simply *threatening* to smack kids around and claiming to be constrained by the law isn't much different in effect?

Cause, too often, nothing's really replaced the *attitudes?* Cause all the while kids are only more confined, contained, toxified, and overstimulated, kind of crying out for attention and still finding what the adults do kind of arbitrary and unpredictable, (thus not something their instincts want to place their attention on) ...even if it's in the name of some chatter about 'moral absolutism?'

What they seem to learn about 'right and wrong' is in fact, "Call someone else wrong, and you're 'Right.' Whatever you do to them."

Because, while abuse is abuse, simply *not hitting kids (mostly) * just isn't *enough?*

Any walk around a public area will tell a very different story, so I just dont buy the arguement.

A walk around a public area is one thing that'll tell you that almost-hitting a child has little different effect from actually connecting. People still use religion and polemic as a substitute for parenting skills or supplying a world that makes *sense.*

What I see walking around is that maybe this 'Attention Deficit Disorder' isn't at root a bunch of kids who have a deficit of attention, ...they're *suffering* from the effects of a deficit of attention *toward* them: while people moralize and say, "By rights I should tan your hide, shaddup," they're *crying for attention.*

Or, too often, *cowed,* which may be quieter, but does not constitute being 'disciplined.' Extolling bullies and becoming bullies as adults is certainly no way to break these cycles.

It's not the kids, it's *us.* Things *we* don't look at in ourselves.

Even if you call it 'God,' or 'Teaching right and wrong,' an abusive mentality is an abusive mentality.

Some people presume that not-physically-abusing children must by definition mean either 'letting the kids run roughshod with no sense of responsibility for their actions,' ...or that it means substituting alienation of affection, promising or withholding material rewards, or threatening people with *God* for physical abuse....

But that's not enough. If kids have no sense of responsibility or accountability for their actions, it's cause they've learned that 'punishment' is arbitrary, and who is bigger or louder or meaner or has more control is gonna be the one to dole it out. That irrational people wield that power, that avoiding pain and gaining or eating something as a substitute for human affection, (or conversely, that if you suffer and suppress yourself enough, (or make someone else a substitute 'sacrifice,') someone will 'love' you,) ...is the only way to get through life. That life is a cage.


And I'd say that if they're increasingly not learning about cause and effect, probably it's because they aren't allowed to *affect* anything, outside of computer screens and the usual social Darwinism of schools.

Some may 'debate' whether or not hitting or not hitting is the thing, but that's not the real issue.

The real issue is what sort of place has been built for our children to dwell.

And who are supposed to be the adults in it. Cause I think this board is one *fine* example of how *our* generations were treated meaning we *haven't grown up, ourselves, just abstracted the playground bullying.*

Cause, you know who *else* in these new times have become ever more extreme, irrational, sex-fixated, selfish, rude, uncivil, misogynist, and violent?

The people who call it 'Traditional values' and 'God' to defend abuse. In any form.

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Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 02-23-2010 at 10:31 AM.

[Rupert]

"The real issue is what sort of place has been built for our children to dwell."


Apparently the judge that removed the Ratlady's child from her home was using this same wisdom? Reckon?
Always nice to hear from such an expert at child rearing! I know it will influence all those here.
Regards!

[Mallee Boy]

"The real issue is what sort of place has been built for our children to dwell."




So is this a place where respect for others, the law and yourself applies, or is it a place where instant gratification and cheap thrills are pursued with no respect for anything or anyone?

As I said earlier, as adults we have failed miserably in providing a better place for our children and grandchildren to 'dwell'.
The sad part is its going to get a lot worse yet because as a society we lack the balls (read courage) to recognise our failures and do something about them....instead we just continue with this pathetic policy of justification of our actions with no regard to the consequences.

Which of your Presidents was it that put his hand up to cutting down a tree? That is the leadership that society needs today.....and no! dont interpret that as cutting down more trees!!!

[Rupert]

Despite some that believe things are no worse now than forty years ago...I am having a hard time remembering guys walking around and declaring "Open Season" on schoolchildren? Now maybe it was a commonplace thing where some grew up in the 60's....but I still don't recall it where I lived.....and if it had happened, it would have been so unusual and sensational that it would be National News of the highest order......but this is barely a blip on the little "side boxes".
Regards!
Teacher tackles gunman after school shootings - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

[Wheatfield]

Despite some that believe things are no worse now than forty years ago...I am having a hard time remembering guys walking around and declaring "Open Season" on schoolchildren? Now maybe it was a commonplace thing where some grew up in the 60's....but I still don't recall it where I lived.....and if it had happened, it would have been so unusual and sensational that it would be National News of the highest order......but this is barely a blip on the little "side boxes".
Regards!
Teacher tackles gunman after school shootings - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

For me what is very telling is the experience in where I am.
American society has always been rather more violent than Canadian society.
Whether you like it or not, it is far easier to pull a gun and shoot someone than it is to bludgeon them, and you guys have for more guns out in the public than we do..
We have less violent crime.
But, we are seeing far more violent crime than I recall when I was younger, and the vast majority is teen gang related.
When a gang becomes family to a young person, you start to see the worst that humanity has to offer.

[seacapt]

When a gang becomes family to a young person, you start to see the worst that humanity has to offer.

How true and how sad.Yes as some have posted , there were gangs and violence in the past the difference today is in the numbers.

[Ratmagiclady]

"The real issue is what sort of place has been built for our children to dwell."

So is this a place where respect for others, the law and yourself applies, or is it a place where instant gratification and cheap thrills are pursued with no respect for anything or anyone?

That's exactly it, though: what certain ideologies (Namely, in particular, the conservative bullies in society that want to tell everyone, "Just smack em. Stick a cross on it. Blame someone, scapegoat a minority or a liberal or a record or a video game, anything but examine what we're actually teaching. Particularly by example: that what we teach is not respect for others, the law, and onesself," in fact, it's the opposite. "

The 'instant gratification and cheap thrills' are pretty much sold by the same interests with the other hand, while they tut-tut about it. Frankly, I think particularly in Catholic schools, certainly many Evangelical ones, they demonize *pleasure* to the extent that they think anything fun must be sinful, (Thus lose the distinction between 'instant' gratification and gratification of any kind... ) and thus that all pleasures in life are, well, cheap and degraded. So project it onto people you can call 'sinners' or internalize it as a sense of inherent unworthiness. and people who don't believe this must be a) Selfish and bad and b) Having a whole lot of illicit fun, cause it's very 'tempting.'

The message there is often, "You want this, resist it! You want this, resist it!" For this, read "You want this!" Basically, the message is *shame and inhibition and fear and control,* not *appreciation and self-restraint and responsibility and actual enjoyment of life.*

Bullying people, socially, physically or politically... Is certainly 'cheap thrills and instant gratification,' ...and so are the very-related anti-intellectualisms of the whole evolutionary/climate/social science denial programs. These three always use the same tactics to cast doubt on people's very ability to learn anything at all,
and then offer a cheap and easy way to become an 'expert' before you even trouble to *learn* any science, or are of an age where the average kid can be *expected* to. Baddabing, now one can say, "I'm Right! You idiot!" And just repeat a few repeatedly-debunked claims when challenged. Repeat the claims, think you're More Intelligent Than Those Who Did The Work Of Learning. Or Living.

Same tactics are used whatever the 'issue' at hand, and generally to the benefit of the same people who push them as 'moral values,' ...it's very easy to say, "That's just a theory, here's something I can say is incontrovertible evidence against it, and which high school science can't be expected to debunk... (but which has actually been repeatedly debunked.) Climate science is unproven, accept instead some false 'certainty' that you can't do anything but make it worse, ... "Studies show" gay people are inherently awful, but don't really exist, except as a 'lifestyle choice,'" (No, 'studies *don't* show that, either.)

These are all the 'easy way out.' Of thinking, of *learning,* of ...Anyone *ever* making a better future. Be an 'expert,' by joining the "Because I say so, *****" school of science and morality.

So, yeah, some people take the 'cheap thrills.' Even if they don't buy the 'piety,' too often they bought the false *dichotomy.*

Just like a whole lot of bullies can't actually *fight* worth a fig, a lot of 'Moral Absolutists' just believe in saying 'Morality' a lot and pointing fingers. People are always shocked when the same types can't control *themselves* and don't seem to notice that *they're* the ones who pursue things like power and wealth and greed with no respect for anything or anyone.

Are they.... Respectful? No. Thoughtful? No. Particularly courageous? Hardly. Are they even concerned with being correct or truthful? No. Just in blustering about using money, force, and claims, "Oh, yeah? Someone else is bad, not me. So everything I do is Righteous!"

They get their cheap thrills in full measure, I'd say. Really cheap.

For them, anyway. Sure ain't doing civilization or the world any favors, though.

As I said earlier, as adults we have failed miserably in providing a better place for our children and grandchildren to 'dwell'.
The sad part is its going to get a lot worse yet because as a society we lack the balls (read courage) to recognise our failures and do something about them....instead we just continue with this pathetic policy of justification of our actions with no regard to the consequences.

Full agreement, there. I just think we're expected by some to place that 'blame' squarely anywhere-but-where-it-belongs. The people who feel privileged by the status quo actually don't even see their failings as failures. They're on top, after all, (or 'should be;') they must be right about the whole pile, right?

Well, actually, I'll pick a bone about equating 'balls' with 'courage.'

Seems to me, it doesn't correlate, particularly in this sense of a really hypermasculine 'ideal' that is pushed, but few boys can even live up to, at least without becoming horrid caricatures and abusive elements, ...never mind ever feel secure. Equating sexual aggression and insecurity with 'courage' is probably half the problem.

They are never secure, always attacking the 'feminine' or the 'less masculine' ...because that ideal *doesn't exist.* ...Those 'male role models' some lament the lack of, are not present because they *don't exist.* They're a mirage. Males have a whole assortment of very good attributes, but they aren't all the same, and scrambling for a certain kind of status may be instinctual, but that doesn't mean it's about cramming *all* of them into this 'balls' competition so there's plenty of people to call 'losers' and 'wusses' and 'f--s.'


It's not so different for girls, either, all the unrealistic standards, part of them believing it when some say breeding and gossip is all they're good for, then people wonder why they get pregnant.

Which of your Presidents was it that put his hand up to cutting down a tree? That is the leadership that society needs today.....and no! dont interpret that as cutting down more trees!!!

George Washington, our first.

You know, we managed to elect a pretty darn good statesman and leader, but certain bullying elements in our society first attacked his capacity to lead, even demonized the fact he's smart and good at oratory.

And like school bullies, they first attacked the very thing both our schools and society need. Hope. Real hope. That, yes, we can actually be smart and competent and do things that make *sense* and see a better world for it. Cause they still want a certain status quo. That involves a lot of dominance 'competitions' they think they can 'claim victory' at.

But *hope* is actually one of the biggest factors in terms of kids growing up well. Hope. Real hope. It's what they want to deny to queer kids, immigrant kids, poor kids, minority kids, whoever.

The LGBT community knows this well. That whole "party" culture some like to say is inherent to us, some innate flaw of people who nonetheless don't exist for civil rights purposes.... Has a lot *less* appeal when we don't believe that's all we can have out of life. It shows. It's one reason marriage is so important to us. Dignity, equality, all that 'American' stuff. Hope for better. If someone takes away the *hope,* then that doesn't make them 'become straight,' just makes them *give up* on the very attributes the bullies claim to command.

The very better future that my generation mostly grew up believing would be materially-and-socially-better, (That is, if random total instant destruction didn't fall out of the sky: I don't think we ever really stopped to heal from the Cold War.) ...Didn't happen for a lot of us, and feels threatened among those doing better.

'Kids these days' don't even get that: they get a world full of fear and confusion and intolerance and helplessness in the face of unmitigated irresponsible competition... Of *decline,* to look forward to.

One's own hopes, as I well know, are like spider-silk: easily cut if someone has a mind to, but they can sure carry a lot more than your own weight. Put some strands together, and you've really got something. But some people just seem to learn to see a world full of knives.

If they see a President like Obama go down to the bullies and incoherence and spite, all the noise and incivility and spite: what *does* that mean for real hope? Maybe it's time for us to be the adults here. Call it 'balls' if you like. But don't mistake what that could *mean.*


Can't tell a lie, though: we actually did cut down the F'n trees. Continuing on this course of action and whining about how this can be justified by cutting some *more* down, is not particularly recommended.

[Rupert]

Wow! Just what we need....the LGBTcommunity and Mama Ratlady to tell us how to get it all right. Why didn't I think of that? I think her background on raising kids speaks volumes.......
Regards!