[jeffkrol]

This is an interesting read, it is a bit old now, but it does a good job of demonstrating the issues and challenges that all developed countries face with health care expenditure.....and why we are all going to hit a wall at great speed if we keep going the way we are.

Snapshots: Health Care Spending in the United States and OECD Countries - Kaiser Family Foundation

no, no, no just repeat "BUZZ PHRASES" and all will be clear..... death squads, gov denial, more expensive, long lines, tort reform w/ the sick going to the front, ect.
Don't use facts and figures and years of studies, mortality rates, lack of proof courts are a problem, profit driven not care driven, lobbiests and drug company profits, insurance rate hikes, denial of coverage, dropped coverage, foreclosures and bankruptcy due to illnesses, millions falling through the cracks, thousands of unnecessary deaths per day, fear of using your coverage, ect.

You would reveal that you actually THINK about it............ instead of flying by the seat of your pants and what you "have been told" and other urban legends.
BUT here lets argue who's killing more Americans.......WHY do people not see how sick that is? Have we become so jaded and blinded to death in this country...
see.. other things kill people too, so why bother FIXING something. Do we not SEE that this is all one in the same problem.. Gross failure of our current healthcare system on all fronts.....
THIS is the basis of an arguement???

By contrast, a comprehensive study of over 35,000,000 -- yes, that's million -- acute care records over a recent three-year period concludes that preventable medical mistakes actually cause a similar number of deaths in the government-run Medicare program. The sixth annual HealthGrades Patient Safety in American Hospital Study examined records "among Medicare patients at virtually all of the nation's 5,000 non-federal hospitals" from 2005-2007 and determined that over 92,000 deaths were attributable to medical errors, about the same as the average estimate in the uninsured study. ..................................



Another recently released study by HealthGrades concludes that "224,537 Medicare lives could have potentially been saved during 2006 through 2008" if all hospitals across the country had performed at the quality of care levels of its top-ranked facilities.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/45000_uninsured_deaths_just_mo.html
But hey law of the jungle, survival of the fittest, they were going to die anyway (aren't we all going to die anyway?)... and all that other outdated c$ap.......
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/september/harvard_study_finds_.php
I have yet to see FACTS related to the CURRENT system that can counter the current negative trends occurring today.. Bring them on please.
As counter froof the the "stinker" above.....
http://www.leanblog.org/2009/08/statistics-on-healthcare-quality-and/
Even "other countrys do it" philosophy goes against our "smoke and mirrors" great healthcare system delusion.
the special interests and gov is currently , to quote the penguin in Batman..."playing us like a harp from hell".......
And in cas you missed it, 9and this thread needs more color )
Physicians for a National Health Program (www.pnhp.org) is a research and educational organization of 17,000 doctors who support single-payer national health insurance. To speak with a physician/spokesperson in your area, visit www.pnhp.org/stateactions or call (312) 782-6006.
DANG left leaning commie doctors.........ask yourself.. "what's there motivation"?
More stuff:
http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/
How's your state?
http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/excess-deaths-state-by-state.pdf

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Last edited by jeffkrol; 02-24-2010 at 07:43 AM.

[RoxnDox]

Jeff, I certainly hope you are not thinking that *all* docs are greedy, rolling in cash, and motivated only by the almighty dollar... Because if you are thinking that, all I can say is that you are flat wrong. Sure, *some* docs are like that. Of all the ones I know, however, I can't think of any who match that profile. My wife certainly doesn't. She's in Family Practice, we live in a plain old ordinary suburban tract house, we worry about paying our bills, and we have a ton of things to pay for that keep us firmly in the middle class. Her colleagues are all in pretty much the same boat. None of them are living the high life, maybe she just got into the wrong field.

As far as enjoying their work, well I have to admit that is becoming more of a rarity. Dealing with ever-increasing paperwork, pressure to see ever more patients in less time, patients who are more and more demanding, yeah those are really great job benefits and inducements to career satisfaction! Spending two or three hours every day after seeing the last patient of the day, just dealing with all the extra crap beyond the actual medicine, great fun so why would you want to get paid for it? Having somebody sue you for malpractice because their damnfool "kid" would rather drink beer and smoke weed rather than deal with his diabetes and heart condition, and then have the insurance company settle rather than fight because they don't think you'd make a good witness? Yeah sure, it's only a few extra bucks... Plus the years of emotional impact you get every time some patient comes in to see you with heart issues, just a bonus to keep you on your toes right?

It really just gets me going to hear anyone say that all docs are just out for the money and crap like that. There are some like that, I'm sure, but I have met a lot of docs over the years of meeting her colleagues, and I sure as hell havben't seen what these articles all seem to imply. Just royally cheeses me off......

Jim

Europe has some fine doctors and surprisingly some do it because they LIKE TO. I know, completely un-american but I'm sick of a lot of doctors just going into the field for cash. Maybe that's why there are so many malpractice suits. Maybe they deserve it. No matter to the MD. He just goes over state lines and starts over again in an area of lower rates. Malpractice ins. can be as low as $10,000 per year to as high as a couple $100,000.. Gee docs. that can afford a few 100 grand and yet still live better then most of us. Funny how that works.. No problems here.
Personally if there only here for the cash, they can go back to where they came from. I hear md wages in India are not so hot.
Physicians / Doctors Salaries & Incomes in USA and the World
PHYSICIANS DOMINATE THIS TOP 50 HIGHEST PAID JOBS LIST at MDsalaries - The Physician Salaries Blog
some of the MD's around here were better real estate flippers then doctors.
There is sooo much FUD out there it's not funny..........
START HERE, read and then get back to this thread:
Myths Debunked - Rising Cost of Medical Malpractice Insurance Is Due to High Jury Awards
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/politics-religion-etc/89059-tiny-fun-bit-...tml#post908034
I will post this here though. THink hard about it.

Case you don't like that chart;
Heart disease deaths statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
And what we are #1 at:
Plastic surgery, obesity, teen pregnancy , teen births, SPENDING.
Delude yourself all you want but most do not get what they pay for, at leat compared to other countries.
NationMaster - American Health statistics

[Das Boot]

Europe has some fine doctors and surprisingly some do it because they LIKE TO. I know, completely un-american but I'm sick of a lot of doctors just going into the field for cash. Maybe that's why there are so many malpractice suits. Maybe they deserve it. No matter to the MD. He just goes over state lines and starts over again in an area of lower rates. Malpractice ins. can be as low as $10,000 per year to as high as a couple $100,000.. Gee docs. that can afford a few 100 grand and yet still live better then most of us. Funny how that works.. No problems here.
Personally if there only here for the cash, they can go back to where they came from. I hear md wages in India are not so hot.

My wife is a medical doctor, but will be unaffected either way concerning the outcome of gov't run health care debate/vote. She spent a third of her life in school, we'll be paying off students loans for the next third (which the monthly payments for them are more than our mortgage), the last third will be putting our children through school. After liability insurance and paying for her loans, her bring home is not as much as you would expect. But she does love her work. Again like I said before, why would someone want to rack up more loans, bills, and years to actually specialize in a field? By time everything got paid off it would be time to retire. Whould you live off loans until your 35 to get a job to pay off your loans by time your 60? It's easy to demonize doctors, but the majority aren't rich and probably never will be. I would have to think a government plan would only make it worse.

[jeffkrol]

Even doctors are getting demoralized. And yes sometimes the cost is high (though there are MANY ways to reduce your debt load on loans). Some of this is your choce I believe.
MD's are still the second highest paid class in this country (below CEO's only) and I do not want to demonize doctors but getting more to fight on "our side" will help because of their economic stature. That's a gimme.

A doctor's view: Bipartisan thoughts for this week's health care debate | OregonLive.com


A doctor's view: Bipartisan thoughts for this week's health care debate
By Guest Columnist
February 23, 2010, 7:00AM
By James R. Patterson

The people most involved with health care -- that is, doctors and patients -- have had the least to say in our national debate. In general, doctors love medicine, but hate politics. The majority of Americans still have health coverage and are afraid they'll lose something with any change. Both groups need to get over it.

We are not getting good value for our health care dollar. We spend one-third to one-half again as much as any other industrialized country per capita, but our statistics are embarrassing. One major reason for the poor results is the uninsured. Uninsured people delay care. They are twice as likely to die with breast or colon cancer. An uninsured child is 1.6 times as likely to die in the hospital. The risk of joining the uninsured is especially high in these difficult times. Universal coverage should be a bipartisan issue.

We should insist on administrative simplification. An incredible 30 percent of U.S. health care spending goes to administrative costs. That compares to 6 percent in Canada and 4 percent in France. France has insurance companies that are nonprofit and that compete on administrative efficiency. We have one insurance company employee for every two doctors. The health insurance industry says it gets 3 percent of the health care dollar, but that's just its profit. It gets nearly 20 percent, while the other 10 percent is spent by doctors and hospitals on amazingly complex billing.

Patients and doctors would benefit from malpractice reform. Sixty percent of the malpractice dollar goes to attorneys and administrative expense. Some people are injured by health care even when it is not malpractice. All people who are injured should be helped by a rational process such as health care courts. Patients would also be helped by not having costly tests and X-rays that are part of "defensive medicine." Quality would improve.

Doctors and patients need to team up on doing what is worthwhile and avoid care at the margins. People need to know what they are getting, and doctors need to understand what they are providing. Evidence-based medicine saves money and lives, but more and marginal medicine is not always better. Health care costs are much higher in some areas of the country without evidence of benefit.

We need to get over the idea that someone else is paying for our health insurance. Economists count the money that your employer spends on premiums as wages lost to you. Health care costs are the leading reason that wages are flat, particularly for median-income families. For those on Medicare, the excess costs will be passed on to your children. Medicare could be saved by getting the rate of increase in costs down to the rates in the most efficient areas of the country.

This covers only a little of this complex issue. Millions are being spent daily on lobbying Congress and us, mostly by those who have something to lose in health care reform. Pay attention! Get involved!

James R. Patterson of Vancouver is a clinical professor of medicine at Oregon Health & Science University who also works part time at The Oregon Clinic in Portland.
Thinking without facts is not logical. The fears that most sell are irrational. We are a very flexible lot..........

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Last edited by jeffkrol; 02-24-2010 at 10:26 AM.

[Wheatfield]

I would have to think a government plan would only make it worse.

Not necessarily.
Have a look at who is really getting rich off of your health care system.
It ain't the doctors, and it ain't the patients.
The real winners in your system are the people who run the health insurance companies.

[older not wiser]

Not really a contribution to this debate just an observation. I have found all that has been said in this thread very interesting (No I honestly have).
Here in the UK most people find the whole controversy in the US very confusing. We have had universal health care funded by the Taxpayer (in other words everyone) for over 60 years. The vast majority depend on the National Health Service for all there medical needs. I personally have been treated on dialysis and have had a kidney transplant on the NHS.
There is still a private/insurance sector in the UK but no one can opt out of paying for the NHS. The private sector is mainly used for minor operations and procedures were it can be more flexible on when the treatment occurs. Just about all really major surgery is done by the NHS as most of the private healthcare providers do not want to invest in really expensive equipment.

[jeffkrol]

Not really a contribution to this debate just an observation. I have found all that has been said in this thread very interesting (No I honestly have).
Here in the UK most people find the whole controversy in the US very confusing. We have had universal health care funded by the Taxpayer (in other words everyone) for over 60 years. The vast majority depend on the National Health Service for all there medical needs. I personally have been treated on dialysis and have had a kidney transplant on the NHS.
There is still a private/insurance sector in the UK but no one can opt out of paying for the NHS. The private sector is mainly used for minor operations and procedures were it can be more flexible on when the treatment occurs. Just about all really major surgery is done by the NHS as most of the private healthcare providers do not want to invest in really expensive equipment.

60 years of death squads... and no bankrupt economy.. AMAZING......
Sorry for the sarcasm and thanks for the insight..

[Rupert]

Live on the net......Maybe we all should be watching it.......Now!
msnbc.com Video Player

[jeffkrol]

The US is the world's richest nation and the only industrialised democracy that does not provide healthcare coverage to all its citizens.
BBC News - Obama urges consensus as US leaders debate healthcare
A debate should be unnecessary............

[SALUKIS97]

Europe has some fine doctors and surprisingly some do it because they LIKE TO. I know, completely un-american but I'm sick of a lot of doctors just going into the field for cash. Maybe that's why there are so many malpractice suits. Maybe they deserve it. No matter to the MD. He just goes over state lines and starts over again in an area of lower rates. Malpractice ins. can be as low as $10,000 per year to as high as a couple $100,000.. Gee docs. that can afford a few 100 grand and yet still live better then most of us. Funny how that works.. No problems here.
Personally if there only here for the cash, they can go back to where they came from. I hear md wages in India are not so hot.
Physicians / Doctors Salaries & Incomes in USA and the World
PHYSICIANS DOMINATE THIS TOP 50 HIGHEST PAID JOBS LIST at MDsalaries - The Physician Salaries Blog
some of the MD's around here were better real estate flippers then doctors.
There is sooo much FUD out there it's not funny..........
START HERE, read and then get back to this thread:
Myths Debunked - Rising Cost of Medical Malpractice Insurance Is Due to High Jury Awards
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/politics-religion-etc/89059-tiny-fun-bit-...tml#post908034
I will post this here though. THink hard about it.

Case you don't like that chart;
Heart disease deaths statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
And what we are #1 at:
Plastic surgery, obesity, teen pregnancy , teen births, SPENDING.
Delude yourself all you want but most do not get what they pay for, at leat compared to other countries.
NationMaster - American Health statistics

How dare you bring facts into this!

[jeffkrol]

Reporting from Sacramento — Executives from California health insurance giant Anthem Blue Cross, under fire for scheduled rate hikes of up to 39%, insisted Tuesday that their premiums were fair and legal, and they told lawmakers they expected that the increases would go forward.

Appearing before the state Assembly's health committee, the officials said that they believed rate increases for individual health insurance policies, delayed until May 1 while being reviewed by the Department of Insurance, would survive scrutiny by regulators
Anthem Blue Cross plans to go ahead with rate hikes in California - Los Angeles Times

I want the Feds taking care of me from the womb to the tomb and then some. I want someone to tell me what I can and can't do. I want someone to tell me what field I should work in.

Wait.


I already have that.


It's called a wife.

Sorry.

[jeffkrol]

I want the Feds taking care of me from the womb to the tomb and then some. I want someone to tell me what I can and can't do. I want someone to tell me what field I should work in.

Wait.


I already have that.


It's called a wife.

Sorry.

Now you got me feeling sorry for you.............

[Rupert]

I want the Feds taking care of me from the womb to the tomb and then some. I want someone to tell me what I can and can't do. I want someone to tell me what field I should work in.

Wait.


I already have that.


It's called a wife.

Sorry.

George, you are probably one in most need of Govt control of your life and in telling you what is or is not good for you. Seriously, with your health problems, you will not long have any coverage at all...and if you do it will be so expensive you will not be able to afford it. If my friend with a pre-consisting condition ( he had a heart bypass at age 41) can't afford it, and he makes well over $300K a year, you must be rolling in the cash if you can. You can bet you are on your insurance providers "Target List" for huge increases or cancellation, it is an undeniable fact, one you will not be able to deny for long.

Now if you can't see the problem then you are indeed in need of a Govt chaperon to help guide you through life, because you are not capable of doing it on your own. I am not happy with the plans presented by either side, but we need to get a start somewhere, even if it needs later correction and fine tuning. To do nothing is going to leave you and your family with no coverage at all, and sooner than you think. Just saying "No" is going to bring down a lot of hard working families, and you will be one of them, there is little if any doubt. Me.....I'm covered by Medicare, I don't have the same worries you do, am in excellent health and within every margin for good health and longevity....but anything can happen, and if it does, or when it does, I take some comfort that I will not be in the hallway of some Charity Hospital begging for help. I'd like to know that you or your loved ones won't be beggars either.
Regards!

[jeffkrol]

Republicans lose......... let the spinning begin.
washingtonpost.com
The most important thing Republicans think is that if there are Americans who can't afford the insurance policies that private insurers are willing to offer, then that's their problem -- there's nothing the government or the rest of us should do about it.
..............
That was their clear message Thursday. It was their message during all those years when their party controlled Congress and the White House and they did nothing and said nothing about the plight of the uninsured. And it is clear that they would continue to do nothing............For Republicans, the uninsured remain invisible Americans, out of sight and out of mind.....................In some versions of the high-risk pool, the cost of a policy would be so high that households with average incomes would have to set aside a third or even half of their income to pay for it. It takes a Republican to view this as a solution -- the equivalent of giving a starving man a coupon for $2 off his next dinner at Le Bernardin.
I love this one.. lets think about this a bit...
http://tucsoncitizen.com/medicare/2010/02/25/sen-kyl-health-insurance-consum...an-washington/
I was just looking over coverage options for a 55 year old healthy woman and here are a few of her choices:
(cheapish sounding plan.. for awhile.. keep the red part in mind)
Senator Borasso, from Wyoming, said that people with catastrophic coverage (like the plans described above) are the best health care consumers because they think twice about getting care. He was implying that people with more comprehensive coverage tend to use the health care system too much. This is known as “consumer-driven heath care” and it is the mantra of health insurance companies. We can control health insurance costs by putting more and more of the cost onto consumers.
Now lets think about that for a moment....................
You should all just wait till the paramedics revive you before using what you pay for......
I really don't get the logic of these people.. sure some people visit doctors like candy but most don't and wouldn't even it was free...
Are people really this insane??????
and the only comment so far is a plug to buy insurance.......
sick, sick, sick.....

One more for no particular reason except for one of the comments...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/failure-of-us-health-summit-satisf...rticle1481347/
Those who do not support a single-payer health system in the US are NOT in health care and don't understand our current system. As a doctor, I see the waste and abuse that is the current system every day. Each week I deal with coverage denials and large insurance companies unwilling to pay claims. It is sick, it is wrong, and America can do better!
One more thing to mention: At one time the auto industry comprised some 50% of our economy (and maybe more the figure is old in my memory). This of course included not only the automakers but ALL the industry and ancillary services (small part shops w/ 1 or 2 auto clients, restaurants, gas stations, chemicals, you get the picture) and we survived that collapse. Th health care industry is only 17% (reference: just to write a few rules remaking 17 per cent of the economy all at once.”) and scares the bejezzus out of the old repubs... sissys I say!