[Ratmagiclady]

Would it help if I said, "You know you're hurting innocent people?"

If you guys are so uncomprehending, perhaps, you shouldn't get to judge who's worthy of 'bashing' and in what way?

You could of course, just blame me for saying things you don't already think you know... Or... Maybe figure that you have no clue what you're talking about?

Just a thought.

[Jodokast96]

Do you even realize the kind of bashing I'm talking about is actually less than what you are doing here?

[Ratmagiclady]

Do you even realize the kind of bashing I'm talking about is actually less than what you are doing here?

Is that how you justify it?

[Rupert]

You can't win with the Ratlady, she has zero comprehension........which reminds me that I owe Phil an apology, he is a regular sponge compared to the absorption of the Ratlady.

The Ratlady has the worst case of gay paranoia in the history of the world......absolutely everyone and everything is out to get her. Meanwhile she is also the biggest hypocritical bigot to roam these threads with her constant and unrelenting crapola.....derailing thread after thread....while moderators apparently fear her too much to even caution her about her insane behavior.

Me.....I have that Industrial Compactor.......works perfectly and is lubricated with fresh rat oil with every post she makes!
Regards!

[seacapt]

OK , flame suit on , ready , go!
This ought to piss off everyone.

Gentlemen , it's just not right ganging up on RML. Let her speak her mind. I rarely agree with her but ridiculing everything she says isn't fair.

Rat , you do turn allmost every thread into a gay or pagan activist soapbox. You have reffered to many of us personally in ways which push the limits. It gets old!

With regard to the POS who is conning a group of Christian pet owners who happen to be less endowed with intelligence , It would be fitting if somebody's pit bull gnaws your balls off someday!

[shooz]

Well, it looks to me that they are just capitalists.
They identified a potential market and are trying to capitalize on it.
Of course it is a manipulated market.
Just the new pet rock.

[Jodokast96]

Nah, you didn't need a flame suit for that, lol.

[Nesster]

I like RML, and do not feel her 'paranoia' is as extreme as most of you seem to. Yeah, there's some of it there, but being paranoid doesn't mean there isn't something out there...

This weekend I've been thinking about the subtle biases that we feed on, stuff that we barely recognize as propaganda or world-view construction. Yet, from a different pov some of this would be clearly racist/sexist/culturalist

I was thinking, you know how 'we' speak about the efficiency of government, of doing stuff on time, without bribes, you know, productivity... and how easy it is to make comments about another country's inability in these things? Just an allusion and Anglo-Saxonized Americans knowingly nod heads...

[Nesster]

.... and these constructions, when seen for what they are, are inevitable and more-or-less benign. Where we run into trouble is when we see reality through one of these world-views, become so attached to it and reject alternates, we become consumed. This happens on every level from personal relationships all the way to global politics.

Often, when reality does not match what we think it should be, we persist in acting based on things as they should be. Done in cold blood, bad behaviors result. Worse, done in the heat of the moment, in reaction, often anger results... and this anger is usually less about the reality and more about our feeling of betrayal etc that stems from the dissonance of what we want to see and what we actually see. And what we see itself is through the lens of what should be.

This applies to the left and the right... and the known cure is to be open to alternate views, to really work at understanding what the other is saying... doesn't mean we have to agree, only to see the nuggets of value...

[Rupert]

.... and these constructions, when seen for what they are, are inevitable and more-or-less benign. Where we run into trouble is when we see reality through one of these world-views, become so attached to it and reject alternates, we become consumed. This happens on every level from personal relationships all the way to global politics.

Often, when reality does not match what we think it should be, we persist in acting based on things as they should be. Done in cold blood, bad behaviors result. Worse, done in the heat of the moment, in reaction, often anger results... and this anger is usually less about the reality and more about our feeling of betrayal etc that stems from the dissonance of what we want to see and what we actually see. And what we see itself is through the lens of what should be.

This applies to the left and the right... and the known cure is to be open to alternate views, to really work at understanding what the other is saying... doesn't mean we have to agree, only to see the nuggets of value...

I can see your philosophy here, but can't really agree with most of where you are heading. While the Ratlady infects most every thread with her nonsense and "persecution complex" thinking , you are saying that we should take a look at what she is saying and take it seriously, perhaps changing our way of thinking ourselves, and discarding our own beliefs in favor of hers? I don't think so! There are many more that do not agree with her lifestyle than do....and at the current time in America, that is their right and privilege. If I continually interject an idea into thread after thread, an idea that is not acceptable to a broad base of Americans, what right do I have to expect you to adopt my views or my agenda? Where you are wrong is that we need to accept the Ratlady's views as legitimate...we just don't, and most here will do it when hell freezes over, despite her constant hammering about being "abused and tortured". What is that old saying.."If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything"?

Now, while I have given you my view, I have no problem with the Ratlady doing whatever she wants...she has that right, but not the right to slam me or others for opposite views without getting a push back in the opposite direction. So....is she abused here? Only when she desires to be, and that is apparently more often than not.
Regards!

[Nesster]

Rupert, no where did I suggest you should change your way of thinking, only that there may be nuggets of gold among those other nuggets ... and if you re-read what I wrote 'another' way, might I be talking about Ratlady's "persecution complex" just as well?

I'm mainly musing about the sort of thinking, that for example, leads the USA to invade another country because they don't know how to run their own. "They" may not know how, but when said invading is done with blinkers on and willfully ignoring or shouting down alternate views, and leaving outcome analysis un-finished (because of course "Reality" can only conform to "Theory", under which said invasion is justified), the Law of Unintended Consequences has a feast.

[RoxnDox]

(snipped)
Now, while I have given you my view, I have no problem with the Ratlady doing whatever she wants...she has that right, but not the right to slam me or others for opposite views without getting a push back in the opposite direction. So....is she abused here? Only when she desires to be, and that is apparently more often than not.
Regards!

So why, then, is *every* post you make about RML either (a) disagreeing with her in general (as opposed to disagreeing with some specific point she makes), or (b) just poking fun at her (not really 'fun' though, more like throwing rocks at the other kids you don't like)? When's the last time you bothered to *read* one of her posts and see if there is something valid and worth having an *adult* disagreement over? You and graphich8s and others have done nothing but pile on the abuse every chance you get, even when she posts something totally unrelated to the subjects you want to pick on her for.

It is really childish and disgusting.

Jim

[Ratmagiclady]

Rupert, no where did I suggest you should change your way of thinking, only that there may be nuggets of gold among those other nuggets ... and if you re-read what I wrote 'another' way, might I be talking about Ratlady's "persecution complex" just as well?

Nice stuff, Nesster: bear in mind though that it's a lot less benign than some people think, ...when for starters, people want to bully you around every discussion, claiming to be perfectly righteous, and then expecting one not to point out that the people and ideologies they support keep trying to push manifest injustices one one somewhere every day.

Whenever I say something about how these 'values votes' aren't what they seem, people accuse me of talking about *sex.* But I'm *talking* about people's lives. Lives that are in fact expected to suffer in silence so some corrupt, incompetent conservative pol can get elected or stay in power, ...by stoking anger and confusion that certain favorite targets are always the first to feel, especially in hard times brought about by their own policies which need scapegoats.

It doesn't help with the Democratic party, either: the LGBT vote is *taken for granted* because the Republicans are invariably so much worse to us, and you have a good five to ten percent of the nation voting defensively and hoping someone keeps a promise once in a while.

Then these guys here, while denying it does any harm, say it's indecent for me to report it. Or respond. Cause of who I happen to be.

The dynamics of homophobia and other forms of xenophobia run all through these kinds of political nastiness. Certainly, denying the element of religious-based bigotry and ambition for control in *so* much of what's been going wrong in this society just means that a certain few with varying amounts of bigotry can say crude things and say, "God's on my side. You are unworthy to speak. (Speak bout *anything,* to some, for instance on the basis, "Because you're not like my religion demands, you're 'against all good." Or, "Be a good queer or I'll bash you all." )

Everything *about* the societies we're debating depends on reason, equality, freedom, and the rule of law.

Not that.

Maybe if people want government to *work,* elections should turn on something more than people feeling like they have a right to take a vote on how many human rights people should actually enjoy.

To bigots, it may merely be about 'defending a comfy and self-aggrandizing 'definition' of this or that...' They fearmonger about "What might happen if we don't make sure everything government does harms LGBT people at every possible turn... We're being 'persecuted' if you tell us about the actual effects on real people and our nation's function!"

The fact is that the whole conservative agenda wants government to shirk social responsibilities, ...And to impose their religious will for them on *personal* responsibilities.

Which is, of course, backwards.

It's not just about me or my dearest. It's about everyone.

Yeah, every day I look at the news and see some move by someone to try and oppress or marginalize my civil rights and dignities on the same counts: Not obeying their bigotries. It's not so much a 'persecution complex,' as... Resentment. And very little remaining patience. When the same preachers that want to run the government go to Uganda and get laws passed that call gay people child rapists and thus demand execution for anyone who has gay sex twice, (And Ugandan prison for the first time you're caught... Also for being an accused person's lawyer, not turning them in, or for speaking ill of the law. )

Same people are behind a lot of the Palin candidacy, Michelle Bachman, that whole 'Family' influence group in Washington, trying to get every equality or hate crimes law abolished all over the country by spreading still more hatred and lies... ...look at 'Repent Armadillo,' getting paramilitary all over the place, threatening the UU for 'harboring Pagans,' ...People being run out of their places of business cause someone whispers allegations of 'Satanism,' ...rising statistics of hate crimes, rising numbers of LGBT youth kicked out to the street, where I assure you it's *darn* hard to stay out of sex-work, (maybe so some closeted preacher or Republican politician can go slumming at quite a discount, you know....)

And they say that Christians should feel 'persecuted' if they can't keep the word *marriage* just to themselves. When it's really about a lot more. They say it's about legislating a 'sin,' and deny it *affects* so many aspects of people's lives. And if they can do it to a few groups, they'll do it to more. This is how countries end up turning into some pretty ugly things.

Consider, too, even if you're straight, that if they criminalize *us...* or other religions, well, just like the rest of the Red Scares and witch hunts and people thrown in concentration camps or stoned in the street or beaten to death... Raped and made afraid of more of the same from their own police, (which bad old days aren't entirely behind us... There are people on sex offender registries in this state and others and treated as child predators, simply because they were perfectly ordinary gay people when that was illegal: at Stonewall, they weren't rioting about the *decor,* you know. )

...No one said the accusations even have to be *true.* Could be you, your kids, your neighbors that get it.


On a more daily level, how many of you straight guys can honestly say you were never inhibited against doing something you wanted to do or felt was right because you were afraid it'd be seen as 'too gay?' Too 'wussy' 'femmy' or whatnot? (Come on, if you were photographers in high school, you may well have heard it. Which is funny, cause it wasn't 'feminine' enough for the gals, either. )

That, I think, goes right down to these hypermacho-insecure ideas of how to run our nation ...even our souls, on *so* many issues.

If others aren't free, neither are you, even if you think the cage fits OK at the moment.



It's been about other people before, and they'll probably try it again with someone else when they can't get any more out of the homophobia, if it doesn't end with us. This time, it's me. That's all.

People try to dismember my rights and life and anything from my perspective into a 'fringe issue,' (...that is, when I'm not being considered as someone it's appropriate for some to take out their frustration and anger and repression and fears on) but to me, this is about freedom and America. My part of the line to hold, when some want to shatter us all into wedges to further divide us.

The targets differ. The irrationality and denial, mean-spirited hatemongering, and the mass deceptions we just can't afford when we as a society need to get together and cooperate the *most,* are the same, though.

OK , flame suit on , ready , go!
This ought to piss off everyone.

Gentlemen , it's just not right ganging up on RML. Let her speak her mind. I rarely agree with her but ridiculing everything she says isn't fair.

Rat , you do turn allmost every thread into a gay or pagan activist soapbox. You have reffered to many of us personally in ways which push the limits. It gets old!

With regard to the POS who is conning a group of Christian pet owners who happen to be less endowed with intelligence , It would be fitting if somebody's pit bull gnaws your balls off someday!

Don't even need a flame suit here either. Heck I even invited her for a shoot out (film) and cannoli once.

[Nesster]

Yes!

Perhaps it's easier to see at 100 years remove - the way the Chinese were depicted as brutish, opium smoking low-lifes bent on removing the Anglo-Saxon from dominance in America. Or the same, of blacks. Or the same, of American Indians. Those Harvard educated racists may personally not lynch or kill, but the ideas they operated under resulted in mobs doing lyncing and killing. That is, if the official US policies weren't already on the job.

So yea, the idea that "I" don't have to associate with the likes of "you", that "I" shouldn't have to pay for the needs of "you", and that "I" have the free-speech right to slander "you", is a slippery slope towards things "we" pretend we are too good, too righteous, to do.

100 years ago, the media was awash in depictions of the "Chink" as a brutish, addicted, slovenly pre-human. The White worker by contrast was wholesome, family oriented and civilized. The truth? The bits left out of Westerns are all the Chinese run hotels, restaurants, laundries. The White man was more likely to spend his money on booze and flooze, while the Chinese retained their traditional values: thrift, hard work, family. In other words, the direct opposite of the popular depictions.

Other than their feelings, what was the harm? White workers in the West rioted against the Chinese, shooting them, hanging them, running them out of town. If the govt officials weren't taking part, they were looking the other way.

Re-run that a few times, pick a sub-section of society or a national origin or a religion. And not in the US only.

Now, these Harvard racists saw nothing wrong with their thinking, they would not see their own biases. Equally so, we don't see our biases today, except by a culture that has developed the broadness to allow voices to be heard. (And those voices are often experienced as shrill, unreasonable, monomaniacal.)

So, all Mexicans have an aptitude for crime, for vagrancy, for taking good American jobs and cheapening them. Never mind that most are good Catholic christians with strong family values. So gays have an aptitude for sex crime, for turning our children to deviance, and so on. Islam is an extreme religion that oppresses and hurts their own, so it's no surprise they go and hurt us. And so on. Many of those who say or think these things wouldn't personally go shoot or imprision anyone... but the ideas gain ground and someone, somewhere (US govt, a mob) will act out the hate.