[Laurentiu Cristofor]

The only measure by which marriage should be considered is by God's direction:
"This is why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife (one wife), and the two are united into one" (Genesis 2:24, emphasis in parentheses by me)

And you are free (not necessarily right or wrong, mind you) to interpret that passage literally as referring to marriage, as long as you don't try to impose your opinion as civil law (you may notice that taken literally, the above passage is male-centric and woman's equal rights are as good as null in that union).

Civil marriage is a social contract including protections and privileges conferred by civil law to both partners - these go well beyond anything stipulated in any religion, for example by also covering separation/divorce.

[dosdan]

You see my mother was catholic and my father an atheist, albeit one with immense humanity and sense of fairness who risked his life more than once to save others. When told by a priest outright that my father would be unable to enter heaven because of his lack of faith, it occurred to me that the God they were talking about was being somewhat churlish to turn aside someone who's actions were by instinct unfailingly "christian" even if his beliefs were not. After all, as a human I would not deprive a starving man of food because he doesnt like me or accept my word, so why would God?

What you're describing is "Salvation through good works" i.e. all you've got to do to be accepted by God is to lead a good life and that's sufficient. Christians don't believe in this. It's not about how good we are that saves us; it's about how good He, Jesus, is. It's His robe of righteousness we humbly wear, not our own self-righteousness. Our own righteousness is like filthy rags, in comparison. Otherwise, as the apostle Paul puts it, how could anyone be saved?

Dan.

[*isteve]

What you're describing is "Salvation through good works" i.e. all you've got to do to be accepted by God is to lead a good life and that's sufficient. Christians don't believe in this. It's not about how good we are that saves us; it's about how good He, Jesus, is. It's His robe of righteousness we humbly wear, not our own self-righteousness. Our own righteousness is like filthy rags, in comparison. Otherwise, as the apostle Paul puts it, how could anyone be saved?

Dan.

So my father, who was never self righteous and sought no salvation for himself, is in hell? What kind of a god is that?

Ah well, at least he has Ghandi to talk to.

[GeneV]

And you are free (not necessarily right or wrong, mind you) to interpret that passage literally as referring to marriage, as long as you don't try to impose your opinion as civil law (you may notice that taken literally, the above passage is male-centric and woman's equal rights are as good as null in that union).

Civil marriage is a social contract including protections and privileges conferred by civil law to both partners - these go well beyond anything stipulated in any religion, for example by also covering separation/divorce.

If it weren't for the civil nature of marriage under the law, my wife and I would not be married (now 15 years). Neither of our faiths would marry us, and we were married by a judge. If her grandparents had been alive, she would have been dead to them. The law should never determine their faith, but I give thanks that their faith did not determine the law.

BTW, how did a discussion about who is a Christian get to this?

[*isteve]

In other words:

God gives you the free will to choose to believe or not to believe.

But if, for whatever reason, you make the "wrong" free will choice, no matter if that choice was made in good faith or not, you will be judged harshly by god.

Do I have that about right?

-Why do so many religious folks work so hard to make God so small and petty?

Because they are made in their God's image?

[Ratmagiclady]

Kind of makes me wonder, on the whole 'salvation by faith' thing: what's supposed to happen if you have, like, perfect unconditional faith in Anything, and don't believe any Christians or their books?

By this I don't mean 'any particular thing,' just Anything. Unconditionally.



---------- Post added 03-13-2010 at 07:43 PM ----------

If it weren't for the civil nature of marriage under the law, my wife and I would not be married (now 15 years). Neither of our faiths would marry us, and we were married by a judge. If her grandparents had been alive, she would have been dead to them. The law should never determine their faith, but I give thanks that their faith did not determine the law.

BTW, how did a discussion about who is a Christian get to this?

This seems to be their Big Thing just lately. Also one of those places where 'definitions of Christian' and the claimed authority of such are really becoming a big deal in our public life in America and the world. ...'Christians' are bucking for control on LGBT issues... for one, for the first time *actually denying all kinds of rights to a minority rather than expanding them* ...for another, using it as an avenue to power over the principles of our nation.

It's one of those things that their attempting to take over civil life through use of government influence actually makes questions like this ...Well, my business, I guess. I'd just as soon it not do so, but for many of us, well, it's time to hold the line. The price of freedom, and all. If it breaks with folks like me, who knows who's next. 'Christians' are pushing through some *scary precedents* and all. In actual fact. While stirring hate against people for what they imagine/portray we 'might' do in their fevered imaginations, if we aren't denied equality in civil society. Then claim that this, rather than reality, is 'The Truth.' Cause they say so.

LBGT people may sound like some separate 'fringe' issue, or 'some sin,' ...but we're really among the canaries in the coal-mine, as regards what we as free Americans hold most dear. More than that, while they delay Justice to pursue political hegemony, real lives of people who are doing no one any harm... Are being harmed, when they don't have to be.

When we most need to start working together, here, they are trying to use us as a wedge issue. Certainly, when you're a splitting wedge, one may be forgiven for figuring everything looks like a hammer, ...but there really is more at stake. While they debate 'morality,' they aren't looking at what they're *actually doing.*

So, yeah, they seem to be 'defining' *themselves* on that issue. Some may not want to hear other views, or think they need to, but it's a worthwhile question to ask. For what good it does. The fanatics won't likely change, but those they seek to enlist to compliance... Ought to look. They didn't want the proceedings of the Prop 8 trial broadcast for a reason, and it wasn't cause they sincerely feared 'gay violence,' (as they accused,) ...Just cause their hatred doesn't stand up to ordered examination.

It's certainly something that colors a lot of people's views of what Christianity's about: defending greed, demanding sexual control, telling everyone 'We're not doing this thing we're doing, someone else is! Without total control of you, Congress, the military, and holiday greetings, we're being 'persecuted!' '

Seems to me, too many Christians let that define them, too.

[Rupert]

There are two distinct uses of the word Christian - in mostly Christian based western societies the adjective "christian" as applied to behaviour is used synonymously with "charitable/kind/understanding etc." in other words "behaving in the same way Jesus reportedly did when on earth".

Of course it means something rather different in some other parts of the world

I have no issue at all with people who's behaviour is "christian" even if they are atheists, hindus, moslems or buddhists. Strangely, most of them preach a very similar morality.

Then there is a Christian as relating to a follower of Jesus Christ, that is someone who accepts the existance of Jesus and his status as the Son of God and attempts to interpret the messages in the biblical account to guide their life. This goes beyond "christian" behaviour of course and spills over into marriage, law, crime and punishment.

Strangely, being a Christian is no guarantee of being christian.

At the tender age of 10, shortly after my own confirmation as a catholic, I came into conflict with that oldest of all christian establishments. You see my mother was catholic and my father an atheist, albeit one with immense humanity and sense of fairness who risked his life more than once to save others. When told by a priest outright that my father would be unable to enter heaven because of his lack of faith, it occurred to me that the God they were talking about was being somewhat churlish to turn aside someone who's actions were by instinct unfailingly "christian" even if his beliefs were not. After all, as a human I would not deprive a starving man of food because he doesnt like me or accept my word, so why would God?

Even worse, I subsequently failed to find any two so called experts who could give me a consistent steer on the subject and I decided they were all making it up, an opinion that I have not changed to this day after confronting the bewildering variety of interpretations of "the word of God". "They can't all be right", say I, "so I would lay odds that none of them are."

I have been a humanist ever since. I believe you dont find morality in god, you find god in morality and that moral behaviour is actually innate in our species and vital for its well being. Where I suspect I differ from most Christians would be in my definition of morality. I cannot for instance understand how a christian or a Christian could condone the death penalty and oppose women's rights.

For me, the fatal credibility flaw with many "religious types" remains their conviction that they, and only they, will enter heaven and that only the "righteous" will share paradise. Moreover the rest, despite the most petty of sins, would be consigned to eternal damnation. That always struck me as a rather extreme punishment.

If I had to spend an eternity with anyone, I would rather spend it with people I actually like. My idea of Hell would be the only atheist surrounded by fundamentalist christians

I read your post, can say that I certainly can see your point of view, but think that you fail in the same area where most non-believers fail......or maybe a better wording would be to say that you differ. The problem is that you do not like the rules of God and want them to be more like your own. The facts are that God set the rules and not man....He didn't allow a vote or offer up any reasons as to why the rules are what they are, but He did make the rules and they are clear and without any room for debate in some areas. What you are saying about your Dad is that he didn't believe in ice cream, but if any was served......he should have it. That is not what God has allowed. It just isn't.
You can spend eternity where ever you want...there are two choices......just take your pick....it is an area where God does allow you to have a say.....so go for it!
Regards!

---------- Post added 03-13-2010 at 08:17 PM ----------

Kind of makes me wonder, on the whole 'salvation by faith' thing: what's supposed to happen if you have, like, perfect unconditional faith in Anything, and don't believe any Christians or their books?

By this I don't mean 'any particular thing,' just Anything. Unconditionally.



---------- Post added 03-13-2010 at 07:43 PM ----------



This seems to be their Big Thing just lately. Also one of those places where 'definitions of Christian' and the claimed authority of such are really becoming a big deal in our public life in America and the world. ...'Christians' are bucking for control on LGBT issues... for one, for the first time *actually denying all kinds of rights to a minority rather than expanding them* ...for another, using it as an avenue to power over the principles of our nation.

It's one of those things that their attempting to take over civil life through use of government influence actually makes questions like this ...Well, my business, I guess. I'd just as soon it not do so, but for many of us, well, it's time to hold the line. The price of freedom, and all. If it breaks with folks like me, who knows who's next. 'Christians' are pushing through some *scary precedents* and all. In actual fact. While stirring hate against people for what they imagine/portray we 'might' do in their fevered imaginations, if we aren't denied equality in civil society. Then claim that this, rather than reality, is 'The Truth.' Cause they say so.

LBGT people may sound like some separate 'fringe' issue, or 'some sin,' ...but we're really among the canaries in the coal-mine, as regards what we as free Americans hold most dear. More than that, while they delay Justice to pursue political hegemony, real lives of people who are doing no one any harm... Are being harmed, when they don't have to be.

When we most need to start working together, here, they are trying to use us as a wedge issue. Certainly, when you're a splitting wedge, one may be forgiven for figuring everything looks like a hammer, ...but there really is more at stake. While they debate 'morality,' they aren't looking at what they're *actually doing.*

So, yeah, they seem to be 'defining' *themselves* on that issue. Some may not want to hear other views, or think they need to, but it's a worthwhile question to ask. For what good it does. The fanatics won't likely change, but those they seek to enlist to compliance... Ought to look. They didn't want the proceedings of the Prop 8 trial broadcast for a reason, and it wasn't cause they sincerely feared 'gay violence,' (as they accused,) ...Just cause their hatred doesn't stand up to ordered examination.

It's certainly something that colors a lot of people's views of what Christianity's about: defending greed, demanding sexual control, telling everyone 'We're not doing this thing we're doing, someone else is! Without total control of you, Congress, the military, and holiday greetings, we're being 'persecuted!' '

Seems to me, too many Christians let that define them, too.

Mostly a lot of very slanted hogwash there if you ask me.....but I'm sure that doesn't surprise you. The bottom line remains unchanged....there is a a large segment of America that thinks homosexuals are immoral and headed straight to hell....no doubt about that. There is also no doubt that they are not going away...not today, not tomorrow, not ever, and your constant ranting and attacks on the right will only reinforce their position....a position you will never move or eliminate without eradication of the right and all "Fundies". Since you are a tiny minority, that is very unlikely, isn't it? But you go right on and waste your time antagonizing the right and "Christians", and they will eventually find a way to shut you up. They are already working at it...and a lot of thanks goes to loudmouths like you that use a stick on the Hornet's Nest, while others in your cause suffer from your actions.
Regards!

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

LBGT people may sound like some separate 'fringe' issue, or 'some sin,' ...but we're really among the canaries in the coal-mine, as regards what we as free Americans hold most dear.

I always found relevant this poem:

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."


We can replace Communists/Jews/trade unionists/Catholics with whatever minority is getting oppressed today - the principle matters.

[Ash]

What you're describing is "Salvation through good works" i.e. all you've got to do to be accepted by God is to lead a good life and that's sufficient. Christians don't believe in this. It's not about how good we are that saves us; it's about how good He, Jesus, is. It's His robe of righteousness we humbly wear, not our own self-righteousness. Our own righteousness is like filthy rags, in comparison. Otherwise, as the apostle Paul puts it, how could anyone be saved?

Dan.

So my father, who was never self righteous and sought no salvation for himself, is in hell? What kind of a god is that?

Ah well, at least he has Ghandi to talk to.

Good intentions Dan - but not the right way to go about it.
Steve's response was quite expected.
All of this is appropriate for a believer, but to those who don't believe it is just more condemnation, which is not what God would want.

Steve, please do not go by man's description of God - it'll only reinforce your already tainted view of this God you don't believe exists. The Word is the only thing to go by - again, let God be true and every man a liar...

I always found relevant this poem:

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."


We can replace Communists/Jews/trade unionists/Catholics with whatever minority is getting oppressed today - the principle matters.

In the US anyway if you're a white, heterosexual, Christian you're the one getting oppressed these days.

[Ash]

"-Why do so many religious folks work so hard to make God so small and petty?"

Because they are made in their God's image?

Quite unnecessary Steve.
Unless the message you want to put forward is that you're bigger and more important than a believer, in which case you bring judgement upon yourself, no-one else.

[GeneV]

As much as 20% of the population reports homosexual tendencies, and the surveys are widely varied but usually show the number primarily gay (whether acting upon it or not) averages out around 10-13%. On the other hand, evangelicals are about 22-26% of the population. Both are relatively small minorities who may fairly be said to be taking shots at the other.

A CBS poll last year showed about 67% of the population supports either marriage (42%) or civil unions (25%) for same sex couples. It seems that those who are so vehemently opposed to those rights are the minority which is more vocal and influential than their numbers would support. The most surprising part of that poll I ran across was that not even a majority (44%) of those calling themselves "conservatives" support no union at all for same sex couples, but yet that is where the law is in most of the country.

As much as 20% of the population reports homosexual tendencies, and the surveys are widely varied but usually show the number primarily gay (whether acting upon it or not) averages out around 10-13%. On the other hand, evangelicals are about 22-26% of the population. Both are relatively small minorities who may fairly be said to be taking shots at the other.

A CBS poll last year showed about 67% of the population supports either marriage (42%) or civil unions (25%) for same sex couples. It seems that those who are so vehemently opposed to those rights are the minority which is more vocal and influential than their numbers would support. The most surprising part of that poll I ran across was that not even a majority (44%) of those calling themselves "conservatives" support no union at all for same sex couples, but yet that is where the law is in most of the country.

There's a rumor that the CBS poll favored democrat respondents. And if it's the poll I just saw how does a polling of 895 people speak for a nation?

CBS News/New York Times Poll. June 12-16, 2009. N=895 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

[dosdan]

So my father, who was never self righteous and sought no salvation for himself, is in hell? What kind of a god is that?

A righteous, loving, just, merciful, gracious, almighty God.

My own father was bought up a Catholic but the message didn't appear to stick. He thought that leading a good life was sufficient. I discussed Jesus with him a number of times. I asked him to pray about it and said he did. I believe him. I prayed for him. I don't know, in his heart, whether or not he ever accepted Jesus as his lord & saviour. Maybe he did in the dark of the night. (I know I did a lot of crying out to God in the dark of the night over the pressure my family faced when our then 4 y.o. son suffered serious brain injury. I think the "dark of the night" should better be called "God's rush hour" or, more accurately, "the people-rushing-to-God hour".) Only God knows the heart of man.

I don't feel guilty about this. My responsibility is to present the Gospel, not to force anyone to accept it.

I believe it when Jesus said that He is the way, the truth & the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. That clearly means that no amount of good works, meditation, self-realisation or any other new-age or old-age philosophy or religious belief leads to salvation.

Dan.

[Rupert]

Good intentions Dan - but not the right way to go about it.
Steve's response was quite expected.
All of this is appropriate for a believer, but to those who don't believe it is just more condemnation, which is not what God would want.

Steve, please do not go by man's description of God - it'll only reinforce your already tainted view of this God you don't believe exists. The Word is the only thing to go by - again, let God be true and every man a liar...

Yes, by all means go by God's word not by mans........some men here will tell you that you can be saved eternally even if you never believe in God...but no where in the Bible will you find such a ridiculous message. Honestly, where do you guys come from? Do you really think you can stay home from work and play golf, and your boss will deliver a nice fat check to you on pay day? Come on! Just simple common sense would tell you otherwise, but you don't even need that...God makes it perfectly clear, non-believers are out of luck. You can whine and moan about it being "unfair" all you want.....just try playing your silly game with your boss.....
Regards!