[Ash]

If it weren't for the civil nature of marriage under the law, my wife and I would not be married (now 15 years). Neither of our faiths would marry us, and we were married by a judge. If her grandparents had been alive, she would have been dead to them. The law should never determine their faith, but I give thanks that their faith did not determine the law.

I don't quite understand how your 'faiths' prevented you and your wife from getting married.
If you're referring to some kind of church prohibition of you getting married, this is not your 'faith' getting in the way, but the churches: fallible constructs of man - not the church God speaks of in the Bible. It's sad that your grandparents in law thought the way they did; I understand exactly what you mean - sorry this was the case.

BTW, how did a discussion about who is a Christian get to this?

It's bound to happen any time religion is mentioned.

[GeneV]

I don't quite understand how your 'faiths' prevented you and your wife from getting married.
If you're referring to some kind of church prohibition of you getting married, this is not your 'faith' getting in the way, but the churches: fallible constructs of man - not the church God speaks of in the Bible. It's sad that your grandparents in law thought the way they did; I understand exactly what you mean - sorry this was the case.

It's bound to happen any time religion is mentioned.

Well, I think we may be getting lost in the semantics of the word "faith." I am using it in the sense of religion or church. My own personal faith obviously did not prevent me from getting married.

On some level, it really is not sad to me that my wife's grandparents were devout in their beliefs, and that their beliefs prohibited marrying outside of their religion. I understand why that is the way it is. I only mention it as an example of how the law cannot always follow belief.

---------- Post added 03-13-2010 at 09:18 PM ----------

There's a rumor that the CBS poll favored democrat respondents. And if it's the poll I just saw how does a polling of 895 people speak for a nation?

CBS News/New York Times Poll. June 12-16, 2009. N=895 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

The one I saw was published January of 2010 and was not based on the June interviews. There were 873 who responded. I doubt that those who identified themselves as "conservative" were Democrats. There are many polls out there reflecting similar attitudes. Even CPAC has turned away from this issue, with only 1% of the respondents from the conservative caucus rating this issue as a priority. I believe more than a third of the participants answered that questionaire.

All polls are small samples, and I will leave it to statisticians to explain how the margin for error works with sample size. I believe that around 1,000 respondents, the margin for error is 3% and not much is gained by going larger. That is why most of the polls have samples that size.

[Ratmagiclady]

I don't quite understand how your 'faiths' prevented you and your wife from getting married.
If you're referring to some kind of church prohibition of you getting married, this is not your 'faith' getting in the way, but the churches: fallible constructs of man - not the church God speaks of in the Bible. It's sad that your grandparents in law thought the way they did; I understand exactly what you mean - sorry this was the case.

I think the point there is, if churches had their way on the country about who is to be civilly-married, then a lot of people, even straight Christians, wouldn't be married, themselves. Because, if you will, of 'constructs of man' trying to have temporal power and influence.

Interracial marriages were called 'against God' not too long ago, in many churches: and in many state laws. When this injustice was overturned by court rulings, it wasn't 'popular' with that set, either. In fact, the same smears and tactics were used against those... And in Massachusetts, an obsolete 'popular vote' law with explicit racism in it was brought into play by Mitt Romney to abridge the rights of people he didn't like to be married in Massachusetts if they were from out of state: thus violating the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution, (not to mention breaking a campaign promise to the LGBT community.)

Civil marriage is *civil marriage.* Churches may do as they please. But they may not dictate public policy. Anti-equality churches (or religions) aren't the only ones out there, anyway.

You see, our 'democracy' is not meant to be a referendum on religious authority or popular prejudice, no matter who says something is 'ultimate Truth' or how many people they convince otherwise: it's meant to guarantee Liberty and Justice *for all,* minority or majority or one posing as the other.

Fairness, not religious hegemony. Rights not specifically-enumerated are not to be considered to be absent: popular will through due process can add them, ...recognize them, really... but not take them away. (Without, at least, proving compelling state interest.) These are core principles that protect us all to live according to the dictates of our conscience within the contraints of a free and equal society. What's being done in the name of Christianity, however much it's denied to be happening by many, is certainly far from this spirit, and this Constitution, ...in fact, it deliberately undermines it, and that threatens us *all,* whether you like me or LBGT people or non-Christians or immigrants or whoever or not, or even if you think you *want* a theocracy right now. It's never what it's cracked up to be, that.

[Rupert]

So my father, who was never self righteous and sought no salvation for himself, is in hell? What kind of a god is that?

Ah well, at least he has Ghandi to talk to.

I can't tell you where your father is....it is one of those things way above my pay grade. But...I can tell you that when your father went to collect his $$100 Million Dollar winnings from the Lotto, and whined because they told him he didn't even buy a ticket....no one was surprised.....maybe you were?
Regards!

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

In the US anyway if you're a white, heterosexual, Christian you're the one getting oppressed these days.

How exactly? Arguments would help.

[*isteve]

A righteous, loving, just, merciful, gracious, almighty God.

My own father was bought up a Catholic but the message didn't appear to stick. He thought that leading a good life was sufficient. I discussed Jesus with him a number of times. I asked him to pray about it and said he did. I believe him. I prayed for him. I don't know, in his heart, whether or not he ever accepted Jesus as his lord & saviour. Maybe he did in the dark of the night. (I know I did a lot of crying out to God in the dark of the night over the pressure my family faced when our then 4 y.o. son suffered serious brain injury. I think the "dark of the night" should better be called "God's rush hour" or, more accurately, "the people-rushing-to-God hour".) Only God knows the heart of man.

I don't feel guilty about this. My responsibility is to present the Gospel, not to force anyone to accept it.

I believe it when Jesus said that He is the way, the truth & the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. That clearly means that no amount of good works, meditation, self-realisation or any other new-age or old-age philosophy or religious belief leads to salvation.

Dan.

Any interpretation such as yours is self evidently not just, merciful, or loving if it implies that the default position (post death) is damnation irrespective of conduct.

Especially when most of the worlds population are not even christian.

[Rupert]

How exactly? Arguments would help.

You have to overlook George and his paranoia....he has been around here a long time, several years, and has become a little too close to some Toxic posters. That has led to a development of a very bad case of "Rat Fever" that makes him think the world is out to get him. He is in the beginning stages, but the next stage is very nasty and will upset all here...the "Ranting Stage". He will be posting long drawn out stories of his suffering and misery at the hands of LBGT's that are out to get him and take away his children, tell us how he suffers from their constant abuse and harassment, and how we should offer up our support to his cause. And....he will do it in every thread he can find.....no matter how unrelated it is to his rantings and ravings.

There is no cure for this disease, and the cause remains unknown.....there are some theories, but they are apparently not proven. Many of us will be seeing this disease progress.......but many will not.....those that won't are mostly Moderators that have a blind eye to such nonsense...or maybe they are diseased themselves and have an immunity?
Regards!

[Rupert]

Any interpretation such as yours is self evidently not just, merciful, or loving if it implies that the default position (post death) is damnation irrespective of conduct.

Especially when most of the worlds population are not even christian.

So if you refuse to buy the Lotto ticket, because you don't believe in gambling...you still expect to cash in on the winnings? I'd say you are the one with the twisted logic, a typical freeloader that doesn't want to participate, but wants all the benefits. And you are slamming Christians?
Regards!

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 12:15 PM ----------

What is a Christian? Deaf, blind, dumb, and born to follow.

I bet we could sure learn a lot from you? You got all the answers? You don't appear all that bright, but you are welcome to enlighten us......I can hardly wait!
Regards!

[Rupert]

Why thank you, let me elaborate. Have you ever thought that religion as we know it is a form of mind control? To keep the herd from straying? maybe make a few bucks while doing so. you are more than welcome to your beliefs. I've found that most things that feel good are against the teachings in the bible. i have no use for this book of fiction.

Wow! I am amazed at your wisdom, you did not disappoint! Smoking and lung cancer ....feel great, don't they! Illicit sex and Aids.....another wonderful feeling! Eating like a pig and heart disease.....gotta love it when the "big bang" hits you....right? By golly, you do have all the answers, but may not be around long enough to spread your message........but it felt good for a little while, didn't it!
Regards!

[stevewig]

How exactly? Arguments would help.

I understand him to mean that this is the only group in today's society that may be criticized, made the butt of jokes and discriminated against with complete impunity. No body, other than the white male, will come to his defence?

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

I understand him to mean that this is the only group in today's society that may be criticized, made the butt of jokes and discriminated against with complete impunity. No body, other than the white male, will come to his defence?

I'm getting worried now. Do you think they picked him up over the night for being so outspoken?

[Rupert]

i dont know how lung cancer feels as i dont smoke cigs, i do like to smoke marijuana but i wont accept lung cancer. yes, sex with my girlfriend is very nice, i cant see that it would be any better if we were married. i do like food but i dont eat like a pig, i'm actually in good physical shape.

i have the feeling you dont want to hear my message no matter what it is, because it doesnt follow the bible. why must dumb christians always be right before the argument even starts, or other viewpoints are made?

Mostly because your message just plain sucks. Kind of like this part...
" i do like to smoke marijuana but i wont accept lung cancer"

So in your brilliance, when lung cancer comes knocking you just say "sorry, not today"? Yep, I am really losing out on the wisdom you have to offer.....and that Satanic stuff......Wow!......now that can be some real fun...right?
Regards!

[Ash]

i dont know how lung cancer feels as i dont smoke cigs, i do like to smoke marijuana but i wont accept lung cancer. yes, sex with my girlfriend is very nice, i cant see that it would be any better if we were married. i do like food but i dont eat like a pig, i'm actually in good physical shape.

i have the feeling you dont want to hear my message no matter what it is, because it doesnt follow the bible. why must dumb christians always be right before the argument even starts, or other viewpoints are made?

You've failed even before you began sharing your opinion, friend.
Then again, you wouldn't be alone in believing Christians are dumb, blind sheep bleating behind mind-controlling manipulators out there to get their money.

But OK, so you think you've got life all sorted out - and you're smart enough not to need marriage and to 'not accept lung cancer'. Are you smart enough not to treat other people as if they're lower than you? Do you think you're immune from all bad things just because you believe you're smart and can take care of yourself?

---------- Post added 03-15-2010 at 04:55 AM ----------

Any interpretation such as yours is self evidently not just, merciful, or loving if it implies that the default position (post death) is damnation irrespective of conduct.

Especially when most of the worlds population are not even christian.

Steve, I'd just commend you to go to what the Bible says about all your questions and issues with Christianity - whatever we're going to tell you will serve only to strengthen your own resolve.

[Rupert]

You've failed even before you began sharing your opinion, friend.
Then again, you wouldn't be alone in believing Christians are dumb, blind sheep bleating behind mind-controlling manipulators out there to get their money.

But OK, so you think you've got life all sorted out - and you're smart enough not to need marriage and to 'not accept lung cancer'. Are you smart enough not to treat other people as if they're lower than you? Do you think you're immune from all bad things just because you believe you're smart and can take care of yourself?

---------- Post added 03-15-2010 at 04:55 AM ----------



Steve, I'd just commend you to go to what the Bible says about all your questions and issues with Christianity - whatever we're going to tell you will serve only to strengthen your own resolve.

I'll second that....and buy a Lotto ticket too!
Regards!

[Ratmagiclady]

I understand him to mean that this is the only group in today's society that may be criticized, made the butt of jokes and discriminated against with complete impunity. No body, other than the white male, will come to his defence?

That whole 'Oh, the straight white Christian male is *really the one* oppressed if 'he' doesn't have unquestioned total dominance over everyone else' ....is just tired.

Really. The people who say that feel entitled to total domination through some pattern of emotional, abuse: claim to be 'Oppressed by PC' if they're so much as scolded about *really* oppressing people, calling people 'merely offended' by real injustices and abuses, degrading their humanity, and saying, "Well, I'm 'offended' by your existence, so obey me or I'll hurt you more!"

These are people who claim to be 'oppressed and persecuted' if they can't demand *everyone* say 'Merry Christmas,' or else they're being *robbed* of something.

Gossakes, people.

That's not how men earn respect.

For starters, those who earn it, *show it to others, even those they feel are 'weaker' than they.*

For another, they man up about injustice, even having been *wrong* in their treatment of someone before: they don't try and weasel out of even *thinking* about it.

Particularly not by whining, 'Looking at someone not like me, or not like I say means I'm an 'endangered species! War!'

Frankly, that's kinda psycho.

Men who earn respect, well, don't feel 'oppressed' if they aren't allowed to bully with impunity. Probably don't feel the *need* to, in the first place, like their fragile 'masculinity' depended on it.

Men with strength and honor don't need that. That's not virtue.

Or an image of a big smitey jealous, wrathful, controlling God to hide behind, either, and abusive-family values to go with it.

People who whine 'the straight white Christian male's 'oppressed,' we gotta do it to someone else before they do it to us/they deserved it cause I felt like it!!' ...Well, a) That's where fascists come from, and b) Seems to try to get everyone to kneel to the divine as nothing but an abusive father figure. Or else. c) Seem to feel they have an excuse to do whatever they want *to* whoever they want *with* whatever they want.

That's not strength or respectability. It's sure not what we call 'manhood,' either.

So if the "straight white Christian male is an endangered species," at least as some claim to be such, ...It's not cause some 'other' exists. Frankly, people with that idea of what a straight white male 'is' or is supposed to be, they're doing it to themselves, degenerated into something mean and petty and insecure and oppressive creatures, many of them with this strange idea that 'I can barely contain my homophobic rage' or 'I'll call you a d--- if you won't have sex with me, is a) Attractive to women, or b) A convincing argument they're really interested in your sex to begin with.

People who have all the privileges and *whine* like they're being, or will be, 'martyred' if they aren't allowed to bully without so much as a word of disapproval... If they see a hint that their bigotries actually *aren't* the one true order of the Universe.

Those don't deserve respect. They don't represent the entirety of the category, though.