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08-13-2010, 06:41 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by krmitchell1055 Quote
I'm still waiting for someone to show some actual examples of evolution at work. I know that there are mutations. But it seems to me that mutations are generally a detriment to a species not a benefit. Also, could someone show me where things go from simple to complex and not the other way around?
Evolution at work: the mechanisms of evolution occur on a timescale relative to millions of years, therefore watching it in real-time is quite difficult for us humans that are around for a few decades. Every living organism around you is a product of the mechanisms of evolution, this can be confirmed nowadays by genetic profiling and analysis. Take a look at the video playlist I mentioned:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Best0fSc.../0/p1R8w_QEvEU

08-13-2010, 06:53 AM   #377
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1) look at the different breeds of dog. Humans have 'evolved' them by applying Darwinian principles: selection of the fittest to breed, and the killing of those unfit (in this case, in desired function/personality or appearance). Clearly it is not a large leap to see that those animals in the wild who succeed in producing well adapted offspring vs. those that do not are in effect doing the same thing.

2) there is evidence of human evolution, e.g. there's a characteristic in Chinese that inhibits alcohol usage, there are adaptations to high altitudes, high sunshine, or extreme cold, for example. The Europeans who came to the Americas brought with them diseases not lethal to themselves - through evolutionary pressure, ie. only those who survived the diseases had children - that were extremely lethal to the American Indians, who had not experienced this evolutionary pressure before.

3) the formely white moths in England experienced evolutionary pressure when the industrial revolution happened - against sooty backgrounds the were easy prey to birds. However, the darker variants survived to reproduce, and soon the moths were predominantly soot colored.
08-13-2010, 07:07 AM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by bombo Quote
It is clear from this statement that most people do not understand what the theory of evolution is about. The theory of evolution proposed by C. Darwin is the best explanation to understand the diversity we observe in life on this planet. It is at no point intending to provide answers about the origin of life. The theory explains that the natural mechanisms that drive evolution are natural selection and genetic drift.

Given the overwhelming evidence, evolution is pretty much a fact in the scientific community, that means experts that actually can have an educated opinion on the matter.

A good video playlist on the topic, please review it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Best0fScience#p/c/D0A39ADD948FECE4/0/p1R8w_QEvEU
And Darwin is by no means the last word. As someone pointed out earlier, science constantly questions itself and its conclusions "evolve."

While evolution for humans may take millions of years, evolution in organisms with shorter life spans and greater reproductive rates can be observed in much shorter spans.
08-13-2010, 08:22 AM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
And Darwin is by no means the last word. As someone pointed out earlier, science constantly questions itself and its conclusions "evolve."

While evolution for humans may take millions of years, evolution in organisms with shorter life spans and greater reproductive rates can be observed in much shorter spans.
There are many - myself included - who believe human evolution ever since the neolithic cultural explosion has to a good degree transcended biology. In other words, our evolution is cultural, techical, and in structures of consciousness.

Darwinism also is inaccurately boiled down to 'survival of the fittest' - there are many other aspects, e.g. survival of those best cooperating to hold a niche, selection of sexual characteristics, and the fact that multiple genes may influence a given attribute.

Thus, AFAIR there are something like 10 or 12 genes that influence height in humans. In conditions where height is an advantage, only some of these genes need to 'flip' to start producing higher humans -- and these variations are well within the normal distribution of these genes. So let's say height is an advantage... tall people will be healthier etc... though in a society, other mechanisms start to work. A tall man will be a better hunter, say, or a tall woman better at something crucial. These individuals become better prospects as mates, and with time this preference becomes culturally expressed as beauty = tallness. Thus over a relatively short period of time, the distribution of these 10-12 genes in this population will show a shift in frequency of those genes arguing for a tall individual vs. those arguing for a short one.

08-13-2010, 03:27 PM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by krmitchell1055 Quote
I'm still waiting for someone to show some actual examples of evolution at work. I know that there are mutations. But it seems to me that mutations are generally a detriment to a species not a benefit. Also, could someone show me where things go from simple to complex and not the other way around?
There are clear examples of seemingly positive mutations for evolutionary gain, but this is not proof that everything we accept about 'evolution' theory is true. One good example is the sickle cell trait.

The majority of sickle cell gene mutations exist in areas of endemic malaria. We know that a sickle cell heterozygote is far less prone to suffering from malaria infection than a non-carrier of the sickle cell mutation. And it is well established why the parasite cannot invade a sickled red blood cell. Of course, that then means two heterozygotes have a 25% chance of having homozygous offspring, leading to full-blown sickle cell anaemia and a significantly shorter life span with growth and mental retardation, high rates of illness (but not from malaria!) and a poor quality of life.

This in itself takes the simple and makes things complex.
08-24-2010, 01:18 PM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by krmitchell1055 Quote
I'm still waiting for someone to show some actual examples of evolution at work. I know that there are mutations. But it seems to me that mutations are generally a detriment to a species not a benefit. Also, could someone show me where things go from simple to complex and not the other way around?
It is a very good idea to watch Richard Dawkins explain evolution if you want to understand it properly. T o recognize evolution you first have to understand what it is and how it works. It is both super simple and very complex. It is so readily available to learn - just by watching a video you get it all explained. Darwin started out as a devout christian, but had to abandon his beliefs. When you understand how the world works and find wonderss in the real world, there is an abundance of reason and purpose. The need for super/sub natural purpose comes from ignorance I think.

I know there are scientists who belive in gods, but just because youunderstand one thing in complexity, it is still possible to have missed aspects of the big picture. I heard that Newton, who explained discovered and understood some very intricate details about theworld, turnedto the god of the gaps when his genius and hus insights finally failed him. And he was wrong... I can't remember what it was but of course it turned out to be perfectly explainable.

So how about we all wise up and give up abusing ourselves with alcohol drugs and religion and face the world without all the crutches and ND filters and rose coloured lenses. It perfectly beautiful as it is - there is no need for really bad sloppy "worsethan days of our lives" storytelling like the bible or the koran...

Free Your Mind! actually wasn't that asong from the 90's - what was that girlband....?
08-25-2010, 05:41 AM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by esben Quote
It is a very good idea to watch Richard Dawkins explain evolution if you want to understand it properly. T o recognize evolution you first have to understand what it is and how it works. It is both super simple and very complex.
Something like this...



QuoteQuote:
So how about we all wise up and give up abusing ourselves with alcohol drugs and religion and face the world without all the crutches and ND filters and rose coloured lenses. It perfectly beautiful as it is - there is no need for really bad sloppy "worsethan days of our lives" storytelling like the bible or the koran...
Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with 'religion' yourself. I have personally not seen my beautiful world ruined by the good news of the bible - can't say the same about the qur'an, but that's just me.
QuoteQuote:
Free Your Mind! actually wasn't that asong from the 90's - what was that girlband....?
En Vogue. They were singing more about race relations in their song

08-25-2010, 08:09 AM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
I have personally not seen my beautiful world ruined by the good news of the bible ................
I'll bet if we could ask residents of 16th, and early 15th century Spain, they would have a different view.

My point is this:
Religions don't kill people. People kill people................. in the name of religion.

Last edited by Parallax; 08-25-2010 at 08:14 AM.
08-25-2010, 09:04 AM   #384
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I am a proponent of intelligent design "not" a Creationist. Just to throw something else into the mix here, I am linking this audio from youtube:

One reason why I am an ID proponent (start from 7:00 into the audio stream):


This is where Dr. Sternberg discusses whale evolution and the problems Darwin has in explaining it.
08-25-2010, 09:50 AM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by krmitchell1055 Quote
I'm still waiting for someone to show some actual examples of evolution at work. I know that there are mutations. But it seems to me that mutations are generally a detriment to a species not a benefit. Also, could someone show me where things go from simple to complex and not the other way around?

Evolution is observable over short periods of time in the laboratory, using bacteria or other quick reproducers. Mutation introduces genetic variability. This can be accelerated with various mutagenic agents, such as short wavelength radiant energy. Changing conditions will confer advantage to some genetic variants over others, changing the relative frequencies of the forms. This is natural selection, in this case in response to human induced conditions.

This can be demonstrated reliably over and over, and is the same process that acts on all living populations over time. Those who reject evolution must posit that somehow the process did not work this way in the past, or that some creator intervened in the process. They are allowed their beliefs, but that is NOT science, no matter what it is called.
08-26-2010, 12:11 AM   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I'll bet if we could ask residents of 16th, and early 15th century Spain, they would have a different view.

My point is this:
Religions don't kill people. People kill people................. in the name of religion.
QED - if I were to look at the things that are happening TODAY in the name of Christianity, Islam or whatever religion, and use that as the basis of my judgement of the religion, I'd be the world's most staunch atheist.
08-26-2010, 12:33 AM   #387
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Evolution is the origin of species, nothing more, nothing less. It's not the origin of all species originating from one super species either. While you can say that's possible, that's just as stupid to say, 'god did it,' as to say,' we all came from the

---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 11:37 PM ----------

same great amoeba,' too. Both are conjecture. One may be more plausable than another. But it's also plausable neither are correct either. Evolution is a theory only. It's not a fact, or even almost a fact like many scientists and a few on this forum tell

---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 11:41 PM ----------

us. The theory is constantly changing. Which the scientific doesn't want you to know. The theory of evolution has and will continue to change. Just as any science should. I feel evolution is tied too heavily to Darwin and all links to his original theory

---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 11:44 PM ----------

being the same as current thought should be severed. But there's too muxh political and 'religious' reasons to do so, it seems. Which is why current mainstream science, to me, is a fraud. Sort of like how some religious people don't trust organized

---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 11:47 PM ----------

religion, but still have a belief in god. That's my view on science. I belong to the astheist school of non-denominational science which has broken with the current church. Just like Martin Luther did for the christian religion. Question all my friends!
08-26-2010, 01:46 AM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
My point is this:
Religions don't kill people. People kill people................. in the name of religion.
And how could it be otherwise?

Assuming, of course, that religion is a creation man in the first place and not a result of divine revelation.

Isn't that the crux of the issue?

Or, to put it more succinctly, your statement seems to me to be a distinction without a difference.

Last edited by wildman; 08-26-2010 at 05:21 AM.
08-26-2010, 05:00 AM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
And how could it be otherwise?

Assuming, of course, that religion is a creation man in the first place and not a result of divine revelation.

Isn't that the crux of the issue?
More or less. Even accepting divine revelation, the problem begins when man makes a political structure from divine revelation. By that statement I am using "political" in its broadest sense.

Once one accepts what another human being tells us as divine revelation, it is no longer (purely) divine revelation but human interpretation. Human interpretations of interpretations become belief systems, and systems become organized religions. Religions feel the need to protect their systems and become political institutions which now have power to convince people to do things they never would consider otherwise. This, to me, is the crux of the issue with organized religion.
08-26-2010, 06:54 AM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Even accepting divine revelation, the problem begins when man makes a political structure from divine revelation.
I don't think so. The operative word here is "begins".

If you are a believer and your god tells you that the homosexual life style is an abomination than it is perfectly reasonable, consistent and logical to want to see this reflected in the laws of your society. That is to make this viewpoint a matter of public policy. When your god speaks you listen.

For the true believer the ideal political system is one that conforms perfectly to the dictates of his god. At least that has historically been the ideal in the West.

I think the "problem begins", in the first instance, when we accept the existence of an authority that always and necessarily trumps mere mundane secular authority.
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