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03-17-2010, 12:24 PM   #1
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More abuses uncovered within the Catholic Church

There's apparently no end for this sad story: new abuses are uncovered in Brazil (also covered here) and Ireland and Germany.

03-17-2010, 12:44 PM   #2
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It's *systemic,* no matter how much they try and just blame 'homosexuality.' All the 'crackdowns' in the world won't change the root causes.

Frankly, as long as they use 'the closet' and denial as weapons, ...act like it's about 'sexuality' when it's about *power* (Even if that comes in the form of making queer people 'be celibate' and trying to sublimate that to exercise of Church power before they can develop any kind of maturity) ...people will be victimized by them.

Abuse certainly isn't limited to the Catholic Church: they just have an authority-structure that can and should be held responsible.

Frankly, that abusive culture has people so messed-up about sex, people in America don't even *give a crap* if the abuse isn't what they can call 'gay sex.' The abusers mostly go after the boys that way because they know the homophobia they preach at the same time silences and stigmatizes the *victims* while they have their personal dramas about 'sin.' Anyone who seems queer is a prime target, though, cause we're usually already cut off from family protection and everyone's primed to not-believe us. Particularly when popes say 'Objectively-disordered:' ie, not a credible witness.)

To them, people.... Children, even... Aren't people. They're just 'their sin.' It's messed up. If you look these people in the eye.

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03-17-2010, 01:06 PM   #3
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So...what's new with that? The Catholic Church is a hotbed of homosexual and heterosexual abuse, has been forever and will likely remain that way as long as people keep coming and giving their cash. Throughout history the Vatican has conspired with the worst of the worst brutal tyrants and evil (backward thinking?) dictators on the planet to forward their own agenda.
While most Churches work hard to weed out perverts, the Vatican works twice as hard to cover up for theirs.
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03-17-2010, 01:37 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
....................
While most Churches work hard to weed out perverts, the Vatican works twice as hard to cover up for theirs.
Regards!
Now Rupert. Let's be respectful of RML's position on this. Not perverts, just "backward thinking". (or is that only if its heterosexual child abuse?)

03-17-2010, 02:13 PM   #5
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Nah, the pedophile and abuser are perverts. Perhaps their perversion is the result of repressive and damnation-laden attitudes. I mean, the mechanism should be familiar to everyone: stuff denied and made shameful finds an outlet for those who have that need - and sometimes the very denial and shame creates the need. This need then is furtively done, in a criminal manner or otherwise.

Take Jimmy Swaggart for example. His public position and morality was in dissonance with the usual power-male urge to fornicate with women other than wife. The pressure of this dissonance acts like a threshold - on this side perhaps it helps keep him from straying, but oh boy does he stray when he crosses it. The idea that these urges are sinful and damning may in this case contribute to said fornication. A less polarized atmosphere may have allowed him to deal with his urges in a better way...

Something similar may occur with teenagers - the forbidden thing, together with peer presure, may result in the kid being more likely to sneak it. This results in a sense of double morality, that sneaking is an acceptable way to deal with things. In the case of sex, teen pregnancy is a result... in case of drugs, the gateway stuff may occur... Whereas, the idea of the permissive liberals is that if these things were discussed out in the open, without the pressures of sinfulness and the need to sneak, the kids may experiment (which they are likely to do regardless, on average) but not progress... and not create the sneaking habit.
03-17-2010, 02:21 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Remember Rupert, not perverts, just "backward thinking". (or is that only if its heterosexual child abuse?)
It's not about 'backward thinking,' ...they do 'get backwards,' though. If people are afraid of and labelling themselves 'perverts' before they mature, they actually think they're the victims and doing kids some kind of *favor,* whether that's supposed to be in terms of 'f'ing/beating the d--- out of you' or making sure the boys 'sin' with appropriate penitence about it.

The whole *belief system* reinforces this notion that sex is a 'necessary evil' to keep everyone either straight and compliant or, celibate, self-hating, and penitent about it: the community covers for it cause they're afraid their kids will suffer the 'sinful stigma' of having been 'tempted' or whatever. The Pope and others want to 'blame homosexuality' because *they were complicit.*

I did end up talking to my father after there was some reconciliation, and heard about things from his point of view that... Whoof. That's not easy to face. I understand that. (Lady knows I like to style myself as having been frightfully-clever about it all at the time, but survivor's guilt is something I know far too well. )

It doesn't change the facts.

The abusers may be 'pervs,' but they didn't have to be. The question's rendered irrelevant by the institutions, anyway. It certainly doesn't make what they *teach* something 'Ultimately Right' that they simply 'sinned' against.

Frankly, it's the straight-identified kids who can get the worst of it. Boys in particular. They're the ones all wrapped up in being *anything-but gay.* Learning how 'perverted' and 'evil' that would be. They end up having 'gun-cleaning accidents' and stuff. Or ending up decades later kissing the ring of the coverup like it was they that did something wrong.


[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ea6TvRBkg[/YT]

I feel very blessed that I never had cause to believe them about the world or my soul. Or anyone's. Even the 'pervs.'' These were deeply ashamed-and-afraid people, whatever anyone said about it. *Stank* of it. (Well, some really were just predatory a-holes, but they generally didn't need to put on a collar to be that.) And, yeah. You could smell it. What I didn't know at the time was something about 'complex PTSD' (translated to me at the time as 'You have a complex,' ) ...may play merry Hel with your adrenal systems, but in a constant state of low-grade fight-or-flight, you take in *everything.*

I thought everyone could, actually. Didn't know what a lot of it meant myself, at the time, but scent and memory are deeply-connected, and what I'll try an verbalize as: 'Pheromones gone sour hours ago with fear/pre-aggression' ...that I could always smell like a fart in an elevator.

Some of the real tragedy of it is, that actually some of these people really believe they're trying to do the right thing in an insane universe: they're just totally unable to cope. They externalize and demonize their own instincts, ...even the idea of *having* instincts, and, yeah. They get backwards. Terribly, terribly, backwards. Not that they'll get much sympathy from *me* about it when they try teaching it. Or 'proving' it.

But even the abusers aren't some kind of 'alien.' They're what some teachings *demand people make of themselves.* They try and teach that something core to themselves isn't a part of them they must learn to live as a mature and good individual as: they teach that these things are some kind of 'demon to battle.' And the kids are just pawns and objects. Quite possibly the 'embodiment of the demons' themselves.

And I'll tell you and the Church one thing, boys. By the *Maiden Huntress,* you don't F'n *get* to use the innocent for this 'sin drama' anymore. You wanna be 'elders,' grow the Frigg up.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 03-17-2010 at 03:15 PM.
03-17-2010, 03:29 PM   #7
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I am not at all sure, that this is solely a problem of the RC church.

I have some thoughts about that, but let me start, that this in no way meant, to relativate the guilt of the abusers and of those church officials, who also did their part to cover-up the abuses!
  • sexual abuse of children is age old and was always a part of life. As most abuse takes part inside the closer family circle (more than 90% of all cases), it was easy to establish a culture, where the victims did not dare to speak out. We have (according to the latest numbers, I have seen in the papers,) something like 400 pedophilia cases p.a. in institutions, compared to nearly 4,000 p.a. those cases reported to the police, which occured inside the family.
  • the family is the basic model for all close-knit social cells. It is also well-known, that abuse is much more "common"in boarding schools, than it is in ordinary day schools.
  • we have had reports about abuse in sports clubs, in day and boarding schools, in nurseries or care homes etc., all of them secular and not church related.
  • if the RC church now is in the center of the abuse scandal, the reasons for that are numerous. Ofcourse it is especially disgusting that a church, which considers itself to be the foremost moral authority, did give room to abusers and helped them with their brutal misuse, by covering up. Nevertheless, we also have currently new revelations from completely secular schools as well and it does not need clairvoyance to forecast, this is just the beginning! I am sure, that now (late, but better than never), we will have a wave going through all circles of society to uncover the sexual abuse of children, that goes on everywhere. The RC church is an easy target for media and for building up emotions, but there is sure more to come…
  • the problem, as I see it personally, is not the RC church, but the very general acceptance, that child abuse is part of our societies and always was. That led to a climate, where everybody suspected this and that possible case in the neighbourhood, but did not ask and did not speak out.

So, yes, let's blame the RC church - but don't use that as an excuse to close your eyes to all the other and much nearer places, where abuse occurs.

Ben
03-17-2010, 03:51 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
I am not at all sure, that this is solely a problem of the RC church.
Certainly not. If you've worked with the 'wreckage' of abuse from street level, that's apparent enough. The *institutional* factors of Catholicism (And other hierarchical traditions with similar structures *koff* *LDS* *koff* ) do make it all the more horrible, though, of course.

Saying 'Oh, it's just the Catholics' certainly won't stop the Evangelicals from 'keeping it in the family.' Same stuff, different methodology.

Anyway, it's a dark subject for a festive day, but as for the Church getting its comeuppance:

Ever wonder what this song was about?

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Riw7j9b8fM8[/yt]

03-17-2010, 04:25 PM   #9
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What I find concerning beyond this particular problem is that many governments are propagating this myth of a major threat raised by pedophiles lurking in the shadows or around the Internet as a way to push for mass surveillance policies.

As we can see here and as Ben also pointed out, such abuses are far more likely to be perpetuated in a totally different set of context - family, church, school, etc. None of those mass surveillance laws help there, but that's not what the governments are after.

Another myth pushed out is that of child pornography going rampant. I'm wondering how much statistics are inflated by habits like the recent one of prosecuting children on child pornography charges (see sexting).

Some time ago I've seen a statistic that claimed that 66% of child pornography sites in the world are located in US. Gee, if they have figured that one out, how come they didn't take them down as well?

Sorry, I digress now. Back to the regular program.
03-17-2010, 04:59 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
What I find concerning beyond this particular problem is that many governments are propagating this myth of a major threat raised by pedophiles lurking in the shadows or around the Internet as a way to push for mass surveillance policies.

As we can see here and as Ben also pointed out, such abuses are far more likely to be perpetuated in a totally different set of context - family, church, school, etc. None of those mass surveillance laws help there, but that's not what the governments are after.

Another myth pushed out is that of child pornography going rampant. I'm wondering how much statistics are inflated by habits like the recent one of prosecuting children on child pornography charges (see sexting).

Some time ago I've seen a statistic that claimed that 66% of child pornography sites in the world are located in US. Gee, if they have figured that one out, how come they didn't take them down as well?

Sorry, I digress now. Back to the regular program.


Apparently you have never viewed "To Catch A Predator"? There is no myth here, and if they set up a thousand stings tonight, they would catch ten thousand predators....all from the internet. I'm not for more internet govt. control, but do not deny that the problem is very huge. Parents are the biggest blame, they have no idea what their children are doing.....and way too many don't care. But....myth it is not.
Regards!
03-17-2010, 05:04 PM   #11
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Well, Christofor, that's actually part of it. *Sexual repression* in fact *just sexualizes everything, even things that ain't.* It's like bolting a tube of toothpaste shut and squeezing: it's bound to come out sideways sooner or later.

I mean, hey, even 'adult' porn, to these preachers has some 'mysterious Satanic power,' ... to me, it's... Embarrassing snapshots of people pretending to have sex. Gods know what they see when they look at 'kiddie porn,' but I suspect they are way too primed to think anybody they see naked in print is a 'temptation' to begin with. They're the ones 'hot and bothered' about it, and I think that really does say something about what they teach about all of us.

I mean, too, I've known some pretty kinky gay dudes in my time, and they'd *never* say what some preachers would to my seven-year-old daughter right in front of me and my partner ...while in a transport of Gods-know-what they-think-makes them think *****es are involved in the situation. The Religious Right say stuff in churches and on state legislative fora that is frankly, a) made up, and b) Something leathermen would find indecent.

Messed. Up.

And, for the record, I insist we're *all* better than this. Some just want us to chicken out.

I smelled that, too.

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03-18-2010, 02:59 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Apparently you have never viewed "To Catch A Predator"? There is no myth here, and if they set up a thousand stings tonight, they would catch ten thousand predators....all from the internet. I'm not for more internet govt. control, but do not deny that the problem is very huge. Parents are the biggest blame, they have no idea what their children are doing.....and way too many don't care. But....myth it is not.
Regards!
I agree fully. We cannot leave any space free to roam for pedophiles, even if eradicating it from the web will not solve the problem. But it will make the space smaller and it will also make child abuse less "interesting" for at least some people.

Nevertheless finding the right drawline between control and freedom on the web is very, very difficult. I have no solution for this.

Ben
03-18-2010, 12:04 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
I agree fully. We cannot leave any space free to roam for pedophiles, even if eradicating it from the web will not solve the problem. But it will make the space smaller and it will also make child abuse less "interesting" for at least some people.

Nevertheless finding the right drawline between control and freedom on the web is very, very difficult. I have no solution for this.

Ben
Well, in many ways, control *is* the problem. Shame and shadows and silence and ignorance are the weapons of predators: a merely-punitive attitude about the problem, and sexuality in general, however, won't really fix things. The predators are out there and they must be dealt with, but this won't solve the root problems.

The real solutions have to start with the kids, so that a) They're less vulnerable, and b) Don't grow up to carry on these cycles of abuse, themselves.

In our society, we've extended 'childhood' well beyond what most other societies in history ever had: this is good, and in a complex world, arguably quite necessary. But as a result, we simply haven't got a mature attitude toward actual pre-adult sexuality. We all felt it, when we were that age, but it's taboo. This makes it hard for people to develop in mature ways.

The repression... the very taboos and ever-tightening control is what can lead to people who quite simply never grew up. Can't accept themselves and basically have had their development arrested at very young ages: I've dealt with some of these scumbags and that's one thing that strikes you. They're still on some level, children themselves. They don't feel responsible for their actions, but rather that things are beyond their control, and young ones are ...Controllable in turn, especially when they're afraid and ashamed and no one seems to understand what they're going through.

Just telling the kids to internalize the repression: use religious prohibitions for a *babysitter* ...Sets them up for this kind of abuse... particularly clergy abuse.

They need to be armed with knowledge and acceptance of themselves (whatever their orientation: even if they're straight, they're afraid they'll be treated *like* an LBGT person, you remember the 'teasing,' I'm sure) ) ....trust in their families, communities, and peers, to keep them from being 'cut from the herd' by predators. They need strength and judgment, not more fear and 'Cause I say so.' It really does take a village. They need to be able to trust that village.

Yes, the predators are out there. The irony of it all is that we got our 'police force' *right here.* It's the kids themselves.

If they *know* what's a violation of themselves or their peers, and can *trust* someone to come forward, it's a very different situation from what I faced, ...'everybody knows but no one can tell.'

If a family member becomes abusive, they should have neighbors to go to: if a school becomes abusive, they should have family to go to, if a church becomes abusive, they should have community to go to. Options, in case any one or two possibilities are cut off. Net-cops as allies, perhaps, rather than 'Big Brother,' so to speak.

These cycles of abuse and repression didn't appear overnight or occur in a vacuum. We *all* want to get pretty darn draconian on predators, but the long-term solutions aren't just wringing our hands and bashing heads when the problem appears. (Or blaming sexuality itself or acting like homophobia is somehow 'against pedophilia' and pederasty when in fact homophobia *covers for it.*)

Silences witnesses and victims, too, both straight and gay ones.

Having different instincts and responses than I was 'supposed' to may have caused me no end of trouble until I, err, learned to adapt, but it also protected me personally (Along with my big mouth. ) ....from anything sexual, at least. Predators and abusers, in a base way, are manipulating people's instincts. Denying we even *have* them (Yes, we're primates.) ...makes us blind to this. Different perspectives communicating means they can't yank us all around by those instincts and make us feel 'wrong' and thus pliable (or at least too busy protecting our own selves) for *having* them.

The impulse is to react with more *control,* but manipulators *use* this. Yes, they have to be stopped, but more than that, we.... and the kids, have to be *strengthened.* Aware. Centered in themselves and knowing what that feels like so they'll know that when something feels wrong, it probably is. The problem is, the default state is everyone's treated as 'wrong' from birth, so who's to tell the difference? Who's going to speak when they're mostly afraid for themselves, knowing they'll be called 'gay' or otherwise subject to blame-the-victim? That's how they get trapped.

I've seen some pretty successful child-rearing among the more-established Pagan communities. Kids who grow up strong, unafraid to speak, with a good sense of personal boundaries and trust in *everyone* around to tell them if someone comes along being creepy. (We also joke how we regale them so often with how wonderful and sacred sex with responsibility and reverence is, they get so *bored* with the idea they want to go off and do kid stuff, which is kind of the point, I suppose. It's the opposite of stoking it all up as 'forbidden tempting fruit drama,' I suppose. No, it's not the 'free for all' most are probably imagining, ...far from it. Nor am I claiming that there's some 'perfect system' there, but the simple lack of *BS* is a powerful, powerful thing. No denial, no fear, just *good boundaries.* And plenty of accessible help, too. )

I don't think I have a model for a secular, pluralistic society about this, *but* I do know that simply making ourselves more afraid, ashamed, isolated, and divided from each other is more likely to deprive the kids of some of their best protections. Namely, people they can trust, starting with themselves.
03-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I don't think I have a model for a secular, pluralistic society about this, *but* I do know that simply making ourselves more afraid, ashamed, isolated, and divided from each other is more likely to deprive the kids of some of their best protections. Namely, people they can trust, starting with themselves.
Shme seems to be the biggest problem: the victims are too ashamed to speak out and seek help - simply because we assume (or have been taught to asume), that anybody who was abused is guilty to some degree. It is the same thinking, that is behind the punishment, that women exerience in fundamentalist islamic societies, when they are raped. Not the savage alone will be punished, but the victim, too.

Perhaps - and that may be the only god thing, about the current discussion - the public discussion triggered now, will lead to take away that guilt from the victims and make clear, that they are nothing else but victims, who need support. That would automaticaly lead to concentrate the view on the crooks and their shameless exploitation of the children.

Ben
03-19-2010, 12:36 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Shme seems to be the biggest problem: the victims are too ashamed to speak out and seek help - simply because we assume (or have been taught to asume), that anybody who was abused is guilty to some degree. It is the same thinking, that is behind the punishment, that women exerience in fundamentalist islamic societies, when they are raped. Not the savage alone will be punished, but the victim, too.

Perhaps - and that may be the only god thing, about the current discussion - the public discussion triggered now, will lead to take away that guilt from the victims and make clear, that they are nothing else but victims, who need support. That would automatically lead to concentrate the view on the crooks and their shameless exploitation of the children.

Ben
Yeah. Of course, the fact is, treating people as 'just victims' *does* tempt many to just say 'Your motivations were entirely *pure,* right?' Which spins right back into the head-games.

Some of it, too, *really is* the nested authority structures, too. Things are set up so that directly bucking church and possibly-abusive families the church may be claiming authority over is of itself something that doesn't come without cost.

When I want to beat myself up for not getting out of a bad situation sooner, taking too much damage, really. I have to remind myself how it all looked at the time: which is exactly how the Neocons *want* it to look, predators and all. How, as much as I *saw,* it wasn't all put together so, and how, really, being able to be trumpeted as one of that school's 'academic successes' (and my big mouth) meant a certain amount of protection for others who were as vulnerable or more so, but who were not so 'valuable.'


In abusive situations, too, there's always the perception that things are 'normal and right' ...and what's more, you're not getting half of what pain you 'deserve' ...and the outside world (Or 'God') is even worse. Seeing past it doesn't mean people still aren't actually treated that way.

I try to remember that.

It's not to say smaller-scale tyrranies are any better, inherently: when it comes down to it a dude with a Bible and a stick and an inferiority complex looks much like another in any given situation, but, yeah, this stuff is systemic, and it's not limited to any one Church. .....but when it is... It gets pretty damn Orwellian.

Personally, I know I heard 'I'm gonna knock you into next week' so many times, I'm frankly surprised they never accounted for the possibility it might *work.*

I would, however, much thinking of those who 'didn't make it,' like to be the first to say to the Catholic Church:

"Hi. Welcome to next week. We've been waiting for ya."

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 03-19-2010 at 01:36 PM.
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