What is, a socialist?

Gooshin · 03-24-2010, 12:36 PM

I seems many people

particularly

people from North America

particularly

those that oppose Obama

are using the word Socialist in a negative way.

That socialism is bad, that a socialist is evil, and that the country is going to hell if those "damn socialists" get their hands in power.

I don't get it.

Do you not enjoy having the police around?

Do you not enjoy having the fire department around?

Do you not enjoy having a public school to send your kid to? (alternatively, fully, or partially subsidized colleges and universities)

Public parks?

I don't get, why the concept of socialism is causes such hate in people, when socialism is all around you.

If you have anything to contest against, contest against improper use of funds. Contest against corrupt officials. Contest against greedy CEO's. Contest against private insurance companies.

Contest against the ideology where what matters is how much money you have, and not how you make it.

Is there fault to the above logic? Is it really too much to ask?

graphicgr8s · 03-24-2010, 12:39 PM

Well Serge just to further this why is everyone afraid of a communist society?

Nesster · 03-24-2010, 12:46 PM

Who in the 21st century actually is afraid of anybody turning communist? That there is a dead dog.

Socialist in the US is a bad word, and to a good degree because socialist reform reduces opportunities for corporate profits and the rip offs of laissez faire. And, in the developing countries, when someone goes socialist it usually means they are fed up with US or Eurpean meddling and exploitation... and our propaganda gets to work to 'destabilize' the country.

Gooshin · 03-24-2010, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

By the same token it penalizes those who do work hard and make money the old fashioned way.

No, socialism has always rewarded those who do old fashioned hard work that benefits the community.

It is modern-capitalism which impedes the attempts of an honest man(woman) to succeed in the world.

Instead of increasing service, people undercut prices.
Instead of increasing quality, people outsource to other nations.

Modern Capitalism, as Marx predicted, is eating itself away. Its hard for mom & pop shops to stay alive. The big chains are battling for the last penny of price difference.

What will they do when they reach 1? Would we at last achieve a perfect market differentiated by quality of product and quality of service? (joke)

Nesster · 03-24-2010, 02:01 PM

Ah, but capitalism provides for the mechanism of creative destruction. While market forces drive out quality/craft and service, they also differentiate for these attributes in niche markets: for the rich, and for the obsessed (think cameras?)... Socialism as usually implemented entails bureaucratic planning - though this can and ought to be minimzed. Creative destruction is when they do start to reach 1, and something new comes along to change the game, and start the process over in new terms. Industries fail and people lose jobs, futures, wealth, while others gain jobs, futures, and wealth.

However, where does one draw the line between socialism and (pure) capitalism? Certainly, we have discovered we need to safeguard ourselves as individuals from the things (ethics, safety, humane labor practices) capitalism is absolutely no good at. And, we have discovered that all markets require rules and regulations, and their enforcement, to remain free. Ditto for societies.

So, Gooshin, what's a socialist society these days? To an American, most European countries would qualify, even with non-socialist governments. To Europeans, the line is somewhere else, having to do with what the local Socialist party is up to?

causey · 03-24-2010, 02:09 PM

What Jussi (Nesster) said

jeffkrol · 03-24-2010, 02:19 PM

That's it......... stupid idiots like to portray it as a bad thing... I grew up in a city proud if some of it's "socialist" accomplishments.. out in the sticks it's equivalent to the "revenuer" busting my still.. free enterprise..... you know.
socialism in Milwaukee
Term: socialism in Milwaukee

Definition:

often referred to as "sewer socialism", Milwaukee Socialists sought to reform the legacy of the Industrial Revolution by cleaning up neighborhoods and factories with new sanitation systems, municipally-owned water and power systems, community parks, and improved educational opportunities. In 1910, Socialists won major electoral victories in Milwaukee at all levels: Emil Seidel (q.v.) became the nation's first Socialist mayor, the party took most other city offices as well as a majority of seats on the city council and the county board, and Victor Berger (q.v.) went to Washington as the first Socialist Congressman. In 1916 the city elected another Socialist mayor, Daniel Hoan (q.v.), who remained in office until 1940 and with his Socialist allies controlled much of the city's political life.
Some of "us" have no fear of socialism.........

Nice piece of historical insight:
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/con_socialism.cfm
It is not true, however, that the United States never had a vigorous socialist movement. Early in this century, a broad-based socialist movement flourished, attracting support from Oklahoma tenant farmers and miners, lumberjacks from the Pacific North West, Texas populists, Yiddish-speaking Jewish immigrants in New York, radical members of the International Workers of the World, and many German Americans living in Wisconsin. The movement had an eloquent, charismatic leader named Eugene V. Debs, who strong made a strong religious appeal to many native born Protestants. In the 1912 election, the Socialist party polled nearly six percent of the Presidential vote and elected 1,200 socialists to office, including one Congressman and 79 mayors. Two million subscribers received some 323 socialist publications.................................................
And their downfall:
The party denounced American intervention in the war as "a crime against the people" and called for opposition to the military draft. The party's antiwar position generated support from many Americans of German ancestry, but the government response was swift and stern. "Disloyalty," Woodrow Wilson had promised, "will be dealt with the firm hand of repression." Eugene Debs was imprisoned along with Victor Berger, a Socialist congressman from Milwaukee. The government jailed or deported the party's first and second rank leadership; banned socialist publications; raided party headquarters; and broke up socialist meetings.

Last edited by jeffkrol; 03-24-2010 at 03:56 PM.

deadwolfbones · 03-24-2010, 03:30 PM

The more socialism the merrier.

Rupert · 03-24-2010, 03:45 PM

Your post asks perfectly logical and reasonable questions Gooshin, and your follow ups are dead center. Maybe I owe you an apology.....or several in fact, for overlooking the best part of you.
Regards
Rupert

GeneV · 03-24-2010, 04:36 PM

From Adam Smith's chapter in the Wealth of Nations on the 18th century equivalent of the publicly held corporation:

Quote:

The directors of such companies, however, being the managers rather of other people’s money than of their own, it cannot well be expected, that they should watch over it with the same anxious vigilance with which the partners in a private copartnery frequently watch over their own.... Negligence and profusion, therefore, must always prevail, more or less, in the management of the affairs of such a company.

Would the philosopher of capitalism call our corporate economy capitalism? Are these terms useful?

lurchlarson · 03-24-2010, 04:43 PM

in the american lexicon socialism=communism=stalinism=evil

Green_Manelishi · 03-24-2010, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

I seems many people

particularly

people from North America

particularly

those that oppose Obama

are using the word Socialist in a negative way.

That socialism is bad, that a socialist is evil, and that the country is going to hell if those "damn socialists" get their hands in power.

I don't get it.

Obviously

Do you not enjoy having the police around?

Do you not enjoy having the fire department around?

Do you not enjoy having a public school to send your kid to? (alternatively, fully, or partially subsidized colleges and universities)

Public parks?

What has "socialism" to do with any of those?

I don't get, why the concept of socialism is causes such hate in people, when socialism is all around you.

Better it be all around than "here".

If you have anything to contest against, contest against improper use of funds. Contest against corrupt officials. Contest against greedy CEO's. Contest against private insurance companies.

Contest against the ideology where what matters is how much money you have, and not how you make it.

Is there fault to the above logic? Is it really too much to ask?

Is there fault to the above? Yes. To begin with it is not logic, it is "feelings", and "feelings" are the mantra of liberals, socialists, communists, statists, and fascists.

---------- Post added 03-24-2010 at 08:27 PM ----------

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

The more socialism the merrier.

Until you run out of someone else's money.

**boriscleto** · 03-24-2010, 06:50 PM

Joe Bageant: Last American socialist?

Joe Bageant: From Wall Street to Skank Street

Joe Bageant: Round Midnight: Tortillas and the Corporate State

Gooshin · 03-24-2010, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Green_Manelishi

what does socialism have to do with any of those

um, public money (taxes) used to fund services that would otherwise not exist (who would want to operate a police station that for the most part consumes money) that are in fact vital to the order of society as a whole...

Americans pay one of the highest taxes in the world and yet most seem to detest socialism!

:/

---------- Post added 03-24-2010 at 07:06 PM ----------

Originally posted by boriscleto

Joe Bageant: Last American socialist?

Joe Bageant: From Wall Street to Skank Street

Green_Manelishi · 03-24-2010, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

um, public money (taxes) used to fund services that would otherwise not exist (who would want to operate a police station that for the most part consumes money) that are in fact vital to the order of society as a whole...

Americans pay one of the highest taxes in the world and yet most seem to detest socialism!

You have an interesting, incorrect, and not-surprising definition of "socialism". Paying taxes does not indicate or define a socialist government. In socialism, production and distribution are owned by "society" not individuals. Just to be clear, Obama is a fascist, not a socialist; he's "cool" with individuals owning businesses provided that he, his posse, and the wicked btch of the west Poliosi tell the owners how to run the business.

03-24-2010, 12:36 PM	#1
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	What is, a socialist? I seems many people particularly people from North America particularly those that oppose Obama are using the word Socialist in a negative way. That socialism is bad, that a socialist is evil, and that the country is going to hell if those "damn socialists" get their hands in power. I don't get it. Do you not enjoy having the police around? Do you not enjoy having the fire department around? Do you not enjoy having a public school to send your kid to? (alternatively, fully, or partially subsidized colleges and universities) Public parks? I don't get, why the concept of socialism is causes such hate in people, when socialism is all around you. If you have anything to contest against, contest against improper use of funds. Contest against corrupt officials. Contest against greedy CEO's. Contest against private insurance companies. Contest against the ideology where what matters is how much money you have, and not how you make it. Is there fault to the above logic? Is it really too much to ask?

03-24-2010, 02:19 PM	#7
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	Just a buzzword to spead FUD That's it......... stupid idiots like to portray it as a bad thing... I grew up in a city proud if some of it's "socialist" accomplishments.. out in the sticks it's equivalent to the "revenuer" busting my still.. free enterprise..... you know. socialism in Milwaukee Term: socialism in Milwaukee Definition: often referred to as "sewer socialism", Milwaukee Socialists sought to reform the legacy of the Industrial Revolution by cleaning up neighborhoods and factories with new sanitation systems, municipally-owned water and power systems, community parks, and improved educational opportunities. In 1910, Socialists won major electoral victories in Milwaukee at all levels: Emil Seidel (q.v.) became the nation's first Socialist mayor, the party took most other city offices as well as a majority of seats on the city council and the county board, and Victor Berger (q.v.) went to Washington as the first Socialist Congressman. In 1916 the city elected another Socialist mayor, Daniel Hoan (q.v.), who remained in office until 1940 and with his Socialist allies controlled much of the city's political life. Some of "us" have no fear of socialism......... Nice piece of historical insight: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/con_socialism.cfm It is not true, however, that the United States never had a vigorous socialist movement. Early in this century, a broad-based socialist movement flourished, attracting support from Oklahoma tenant farmers and miners, lumberjacks from the Pacific North West, Texas populists, Yiddish-speaking Jewish immigrants in New York, radical members of the International Workers of the World, and many German Americans living in Wisconsin. The movement had an eloquent, charismatic leader named Eugene V. Debs, who strong made a strong religious appeal to many native born Protestants. In the 1912 election, the Socialist party polled nearly six percent of the Presidential vote and elected 1,200 socialists to office, including one Congressman and 79 mayors. Two million subscribers received some 323 socialist publications................................................. And their downfall: The party denounced American intervention in the war as "a crime against the people" and called for opposition to the military draft. The party's antiwar position generated support from many Americans of German ancestry, but the government response was swift and stern. "Disloyalty," Woodrow Wilson had promised, "will be dealt with the firm hand of repression." Eugene Debs was imprisoned along with Victor Berger, a Socialist congressman from Milwaukee. The government jailed or deported the party's first and second rank leadership; banned socialist publications; raided party headquarters; and broke up socialist meetings. Last edited by jeffkrol; 03-24-2010 at 03:56 PM.

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03-24-2010, 12:39 PM	#2
graphicgr8s Guest	Well Serge just to further this why is everyone afraid of a communist society?

03-24-2010, 12:46 PM	#3
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	Who in the 21st century actually is afraid of anybody turning communist? That there is a dead dog. Socialist in the US is a bad word, and to a good degree because socialist reform reduces opportunities for corporate profits and the rip offs of laissez faire. And, in the developing countries, when someone goes socialist it usually means they are fed up with US or Eurpean meddling and exploitation... and our propaganda gets to work to 'destabilize' the country.

03-24-2010, 01:34 PM	#4
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610 Original Poster	Originally posted by graphicgr8s By the same token it penalizes those who do work hard and make money the old fashioned way. No, socialism has always rewarded those who do old fashioned hard work that benefits the community. It is modern-capitalism which impedes the attempts of an honest man(woman) to succeed in the world. Instead of increasing service, people undercut prices. Instead of increasing quality, people outsource to other nations. Modern Capitalism, as Marx predicted, is eating itself away. Its hard for mom & pop shops to stay alive. The big chains are battling for the last penny of price difference. What will they do when they reach 1? Would we at last achieve a perfect market differentiated by quality of product and quality of service? (joke)

03-24-2010, 02:01 PM	#5
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	Ah, but capitalism provides for the mechanism of creative destruction. While market forces drive out quality/craft and service, they also differentiate for these attributes in niche markets: for the rich, and for the obsessed (think cameras?)... Socialism as usually implemented entails bureaucratic planning - though this can and ought to be minimzed. Creative destruction is when they do start to reach 1, and something new comes along to change the game, and start the process over in new terms. Industries fail and people lose jobs, futures, wealth, while others gain jobs, futures, and wealth. However, where does one draw the line between socialism and (pure) capitalism? Certainly, we have discovered we need to safeguard ourselves as individuals from the things (ethics, safety, humane labor practices) capitalism is absolutely no good at. And, we have discovered that all markets require rules and regulations, and their enforcement, to remain free. Ditto for societies. So, Gooshin, what's a socialist society these days? To an American, most European countries would qualify, even with non-socialist governments. To Europeans, the line is somewhere else, having to do with what the local Socialist party is up to?

03-24-2010, 02:09 PM	#6
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	What Jussi (Nesster) said

03-24-2010, 03:30 PM	#8
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	The more socialism the merrier.

03-24-2010, 03:45 PM	#9
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	Your post asks perfectly logical and reasonable questions Gooshin, and your follow ups are dead center. Maybe I owe you an apology.....or several in fact, for overlooking the best part of you. Regards Rupert

03-24-2010, 04:36 PM	#10
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	From Adam Smith's chapter in the Wealth of Nations on the 18th century equivalent of the publicly held corporation: Quote: The directors of such companies, however, being the managers rather of other people’s money than of their own, it cannot well be expected, that they should watch over it with the same anxious vigilance with which the partners in a private copartnery frequently watch over their own.... Negligence and profusion, therefore, must always prevail, more or less, in the management of the affairs of such a company. Would the philosopher of capitalism call our corporate economy capitalism? Are these terms useful?

03-24-2010, 04:43 PM	#11
lurchlarson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Oregon, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 681	in the american lexicon socialism=communism=stalinism=evil

03-24-2010, 06:26 PM	#12
Green_Manelishi Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: On the edge ... Posts: 179	Originally posted by Gooshin I seems many people particularly people from North America particularly those that oppose Obama are using the word Socialist in a negative way. That socialism is bad, that a socialist is evil, and that the country is going to hell if those "damn socialists" get their hands in power. I don't get it. Obviously Do you not enjoy having the police around? Do you not enjoy having the fire department around? Do you not enjoy having a public school to send your kid to? (alternatively, fully, or partially subsidized colleges and universities) Public parks? What has "socialism" to do with any of those? I don't get, why the concept of socialism is causes such hate in people, when socialism is all around you. Better it be all around than "here". If you have anything to contest against, contest against improper use of funds. Contest against corrupt officials. Contest against greedy CEO's. Contest against private insurance companies. Contest against the ideology where what matters is how much money you have, and not how you make it. Is there fault to the above logic? Is it really too much to ask? Is there fault to the above? Yes. To begin with it is not logic, it is "feelings", and "feelings" are the mantra of liberals, socialists, communists, statists, and fascists. ---------- Post added 03-24-2010 at 08:27 PM ---------- Originally posted by deadwolfbones The more socialism the merrier. Until you run out of someone else's money.

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03-24-2010, 06:50 PM	#13
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Joe Bageant: Last American socialist? Joe Bageant: From Wall Street to Skank Street Joe Bageant: Round Midnight: Tortillas and the Corporate State

03-24-2010, 07:01 PM	#14
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610 Original Poster	Originally posted by Green_Manelishi what does socialism have to do with any of those um, public money (taxes) used to fund services that would otherwise not exist (who would want to operate a police station that for the most part consumes money) that are in fact vital to the order of society as a whole... Americans pay one of the highest taxes in the world and yet most seem to detest socialism! :/ ---------- Post added 03-24-2010 at 07:06 PM ---------- Originally posted by boriscleto Joe Bageant: Last American socialist? Joe Bageant: From Wall Street to Skank Street

03-24-2010, 07:20 PM	#15
Green_Manelishi Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: On the edge ... Posts: 179	Originally posted by Gooshin um, public money (taxes) used to fund services that would otherwise not exist (who would want to operate a police station that for the most part consumes money) that are in fact vital to the order of society as a whole... Americans pay one of the highest taxes in the world and yet most seem to detest socialism! You have an interesting, incorrect, and not-surprising definition of "socialism". Paying taxes does not indicate or define a socialist government. In socialism, production and distribution are owned by "society" not individuals. Just to be clear, Obama is a fascist, not a socialist; he's "cool" with individuals owning businesses provided that he, his posse, and the wicked btch of the west Poliosi tell the owners how to run the business.