[Ira]

Who was the one who said religion is a good thing when taken in moderation? Same thing with capitalism.

I applaud Yucatan's post--beautifully executed--and I agree with every point, especially about free trade:

For some nutty reason, we actually thought NAFTA was going to help America. Now, read here "America," and not "Americans."

Cheap tomatoes would come from Mexico, far lower priced maple syrup from Canada, and American corporations would be able to EXPORT to those countries. But what happened? U.S. companies closed down here and opened plants in Mexico with cheaper labor and zero environmental and other regulations.

How did this help "Americans?" Sure, we could now get Nike sneakers at a lower cost, but how does the guy who lost his job from one of these companies buy them? China is going to BURY us, and unfortunately, both Dems and Repubs seem to be on the same side of this issue.

I'm a liberal, but I'm amazed that the Conservatives haven't made this a cornerstone issue, but maybe I shouldn't be. Both parties are supported by business, and business is business.

I think we have to get back to a little good old protectionism, create jobs and industry here, and learn to bite the bullet in the way of higher prices and realize that it's all for a greater good.

[Ratmagiclady]

I think we have to get back to a little good old protectionism, create jobs and industry here, and learn to bite the bullet in the way of higher prices and realize that it's all for a greater good.

One of the ways we can 'compete' with the likes of China on the manufacturing end is to get back to *quality,* instead of buying the same junk over and over again.

The effects of this outsourcing stuff and all in other countries is called 'The Race To The Bottom.' We lost the race to the bottom, ...producing and consuming more and more and cheaper and cheaper, and all more homogenized, that's what's croaking us. Even all these simple consumer goods really add up to a big mess.

A lot of this process for us began with entrenched corporate interests *refusing to innovate,* looking for more short-term profit based on ideas of cheap petroleum, dumping waste into the environment and onto the future, and 'blaming labor' while the likes of Japan were more reactive and more actual-quality-and-efficiency oriented.

We can do a lot more *locally* than we have been accustomed to thinking we have to.

People wonder why they feel 'Our culture is in decline,' well, look around. We live in a strip mall.

[areidjr]

Al, your story is one example, your acquaintance is another......there are close to 20 million stories and neither one of these may (or may not) be typical, but overall we would be in worse shape without Unemployment Benefits, and so would the economy.

Sure, it's one example, but many a political speech has been given where anecdotal evidence is given to support one side or the other.

But you seem to imply that I am against Unemployment Benefits and that is an incorrect assumption. I merely stated that there is evidence, both for and against, as it related to indefinite extension of those benefits.

As for new jobs, you won't find a single American Worker, not a mechanic, not a janitor, not a bricklayer, that has sent his job off to China....but you will find droves of Fat Cats that have sent millions of good jobs there to make a few extra dollars in labor savings add up to Billions in their already overstuffed vaults of broken American Dreams. These are the same Fat Cats that pull your strings, tell you what and how to think, and only let you have a TV with one channel....FAUX News. Your Fat Cats have stolen billions from the American people, and when they stubbed their toes and lost a bundle from their own greedy actions, they asked me to pay them back for their losses......I think they even asked you too, but didn't let that get on Faux News, did they?
Regards!

More useless rambling and blame gaming. You forgot to mention "Jesus George" and that Obama ius a black man.

[wildman]

I can understand you can make a good case for the market system.

What I don't understand is elevating it to the level of a secular religion.

It's just a human institution created by humans, and I hope, for humans.

As such it's just like any other institution - imperfect and needs tinkering with from time to time. It is not sacred. The idea that the market is self correcting is humbug in my opinion. Unless, of course, by self correcting you mean throwing the country into a deep painful destructive depression for years.

Also it may be a wonderful system for developing and distributing TVs and cameras but is it just as good for the delivery of health care for instance?

"Free Market System" is a contradiction in terms - it describes not a system but a superstition.

----------------------------------------------

Referring to his free-market ideology, Mr. Greenspan added: “I have
found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I
have been very distressed by that fact.”

Mr. Waxman pressed the former Fed chair to clarify his words. “In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working,” Mr. Waxman said.

“Absolutely, precisely,” Mr. Greenspan replied. “You know, that’s
precisely the reason I was shocked, because I have been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well but in fact it was self destructing.”

---

Last edited by wildman; 03-31-2010 at 08:07 AM.

[Rupert]

Sure, it's one example, but many a political speech has been given where anecdotal evidence is given to support one side or the other.

But you seem to imply that I am against Unemployment Benefits and that is an incorrect assumption. I merely stated that there is evidence, both for and against, as it related to indefinite extension of those benefits.



More useless rambling and blame gaming. You forgot to mention "Jesus George" and that Obama ius a black man.

Sorry I left those out Al...hope I didn't offend you by not mentioning that your Jesus George was mostly responsible for our current economic collapse, which has been turned around by the hard work of a Big Scary Black man. It has been almost like Magic......can you imagine that...a "Magic Negro"! I ought to make a little jingle about that.....I'm surprised someone hasn't thought of it......you too?
Beast Regards!

[areidjr]

Referring to his free-market ideology, Mr. Greenspan added: “I have
found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I
have been very distressed by that fact.”

Mr. Waxman pressed the former Fed chair to clarify his words. “In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working,” Mr. Waxman said.

“Absolutely, precisely,” Mr. Greenspan replied. “You know, that’s
precisely the reason I was shocked, because I have been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well but in fact it was self distructing.”

I believe that Greenspan was specifically speaking about the banking industry and his belief that the banks and financial markets would do the right thing, if only for self preservation. And that was his reason to believe that stricter regulation was not necessary.

I'm not so sure that he was referring to the "Free Market" in general, but I can't read minds.

[Ratmagiclady]

I believe that Greenspan was specifically speaking about the banking industry and his belief that the banks and financial markets would do the right thing, if only for self preservation. And that was his reason to believe that stricter regulation was not necessary.

I'm not so sure that he was referring to the "Free Market" in general, but I can't read minds.

It's certainly enough to show that the 'Invisible Hand Of The Unbridled Free Market' isn't the 'One True Revealed Religion For Everything (And Greenspan Is its Prophet)' it was cracked up to be. Which is, I believe, the point of what you were replying to.

[shooz]

What is a Sean Hannity?
One string bass player? That would be consevative.
One finger pianist?

I will say this one more time........There is no free market!
All markets are manipulated.
If you think the markets are free.......YOU are being manipulated.

[Parallax]

........... As long as you buy into the right wing propaganda that keeps far too many working people enslaved by the Fat Cats on the right you will suffer their punishment while they attempt to make you think you are important to them. ...............
Best Regards!

Oh, here we go again, WAH, WAH, somebody has more money than I do. WAH, WAH!

[GeneV]

I can understand you can make a good case for the market system.

What I don't understand is elevating it to the level of a secular religion.

It's just a human institution created by humans, and I hope, for humans.

As such it's just like any other institution - imperfect and needs tinkering with from time to time. It is not sacred. The idea that the market is self correcting is humbug in my opinion. Unless, of course, by self correcting you mean throwing the country into a deep painful destructive depression for years.

Also it may be a wonderful system for developing and distributing TVs and cameras but is it just as good for the delivery of health care for instance?

"Free Market System" is a contradiction in terms - it describes not a system but a superstition.

Very well said. I do think freedom should be a very important goal of any political or economic system. However, the Panglossian belief that everything just works itself out for the best if left alone is not supported by evidence. If you just let a football game go, without referees or rules, it quickly becomes something other than football. Not even Adam Smith would agree with this vision,

“Such regulations may, no doubt, be considered as in some respects a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments; of the most free, as well as of the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communication of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade which are here proposed.”

Wealth of Nations II 324.

By the way, the fire analogy I often use comes from the master philosopher of capitalism, himself, not me.

[Nesster]

Oh, here we go again, WAH, WAH, somebody has more money than I do. WAH, WAH!

I'm sorry you're feeling that way, and I can see the anger directed at all those fat cats and fat government... But really, you all can fix that by giving the fat cats another windfall and by making sure fat government doesn't help you out. All you need is a tea bag...

At least the liberals go WAH WAH, somebody has less money than I do. Wah Wah! Never mind that there are fat cats who see that handing out money to the moneyless will get them to buy more crap made in China... these fat cats may be a bit better than those right wing ones that don't actually see that and simply go directly to the gov't trough.

[Rupert]

Oh, here we go again, WAH, WAH, somebody has more money than I do. WAH, WAH!

You have no idea of how much money I have! And I stand by my words...truer words were never spoken here Jim. I didn't get any of my money from the graciousness of Fat Cats, I'll tell you that for sure. If you can get that collar and chain off, you too can realize the American Dream...and it isn't found on FauX News, I guarantee!
Regards!
Just use the Fat Cats when you can......they are not as a smart as you can be if you are free to think for yourself...

40K shares....Bank of America in March 09@ about $1.76 Sell in October @ about $17.40........do the math. Great opportunities happen every year or so.......American Airlines at about $.100 a share after 911.......I missed it, but my cousin, a retired American employee saw American as "too big and too 'American' to fail"...mortgaged his house and everything he had on earth.....300K shares....Now lives "throughout" the world.....I saw Bank of America as "too big to fail and also that "American" part...and went for it. Look around, there are opportunities the Fat Cats don't want you to see from their comfy laps.
Regards!

[Parallax]

You have no idea of how much money I have! And I stand by my words...truer words were never spoken here Jim. I didn't get any of my money from the graciousness of Fat Cats, I'll tell you that for sure. If you can get that collar and chain off, you too can realize the American Dream...and it isn't found on FauX News, I guarantee!
Regards!
Just use the Fat Cats when you can......they are not as a smart as you can be if you are free to think for yourself...

40K shares....Bank of America in March 09@ about $1.76 Sell in October @ about $17.40........do the math. Great opportunities happen every year or so.......American Airlines at about $.100 a share after 911.......I missed it, but my cousin, a retired American employee saw American as "too big and too 'American' to fail"...mortgaged his house and everything he had on earth.....300K shares....Now lives "throughout" the world.....I saw Bank of America as "too big to fail and also that "American" part...and went for it. Look around, there are opportunities the Fat Cats don't want you to see from their comfy laps.
Regards!

That was my point, Rupert. Opportunities are there for anybody. Some of them in despite the fats cats, some because of them. You worked for what you have, either with your hands as a plumber, or with you brain as an investor. (Are you absolutely certain you're a liberal?)

Problem: Person needs more money
Actions that can be taken:

1 Work more
2. Work harder
3. Work smarter
4. Whine about the fat cats having too much money.
Which of the above is least likely to improver the person's situation?

You and I are supposed to be arguing about things, not agreeing. This isn't as much fun as it used to be now that you are starting to come around to the conservative
way of thinking.

[areidjr]

This isn't as much fun as it used to be now that you are starting to come around to the conservative way of thinking.

Nothing like throwing gasoline on a fire

[Parallax]

Yeah, I figure I'm going to pay for that.