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04-02-2010, 10:19 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I'm not trying to take over the Ratlady's job of bashing Christians, but I do have to ask....where are all those good right leaning, Troop Supporting Christians, when these perverts are waving their sick posters in the faces of the dead Soldiers family and friends, and shouting obscenities? They seem to be able to get out in force to form prayer groups to pray for the "Lord to take Obama"...or to swoon at a Sarah Palin rally....but I guess they are too busy to get out and counter those that are delivering pain and suffering to the Soldier's family? Why is that? Just wondering......honestly, I am not trying to make this political, it is clearly a case of demented souls (or lack of) responsible, but why do we see the Hell's Angels and other Bikers doing the job of those that have hollered the loudest for the past nine years about supporting the Troops?
Come to think of it...where are those on the left at these atrocities? Don't we have any damn Americans left in America? Couldn't we at least get together and hire a couple of thousand illegals to stand in for us and counter demonstrate? We hire them for our yard work and to cook and clean for us, and wash our cars.......why not to demonstrate for us while we sit on our fat asses and watch Oprah?
Best Regards!
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04-03-2010, 04:15 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Green_Manelishi Quote
Well that's just not true. Ask the experts, they will tell you music, movies, books and video games have no effect on anyone's behavior. On the other hand, a subliminal message like "Buy CocaCola" or "Kill Yourself" will cause behavior.
QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Although it may be true that media does not cause anti social behavior it does influence it. One of the problems is that films , TV , music and video games today glorify "The Bad Guys". If you go back a few years there was violence (not gore for its own sake) in films but there was a clear cut message of right and wrong. The good guy usually won and the bad guys got their just rewards. Even in the case of the tragic hero there were clear messages. This is no longer the case. We need more Clint Eastwoods , Charles Bronsons and John Waynes!
Go back one more generation, or actually John Wayne's generation - if you watch a John Ford western, for example, the moral message is clear, and the consequences of hurting another are shown - you see the pain and the sorrow of the 'good' people.

That stuff is no longer there in movies and video games. I don't really give a crap about what experts say 'causes' casual violence these days, I do know that when someone grows up surrounded by images of the zippless death (to borrow Erica Jong's 'zipless ****') the mental barrier against violence is weakened. Video reality becomes confused with reality. It doesn't really matter whether the bad guys are glorified; the thing is, people get away with murder. Show that 100,000 times to a kid, some part of that message sinks in. And if there isn't anything to counter balance this...

Adult mob behavior has always worked the same. If anything this shows how related we are to chimps and baboons.
04-03-2010, 05:14 AM   #33
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Speaking of films take a look at this documentary - Jesus Camp

Jesus Camp (2006)
04-03-2010, 07:38 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I'm not trying to take over the Ratlady's job of bashing Christians, but I do have to ask....where are all those good right leaning, Troop Supporting Christians, when these perverts are waving their sick posters in the faces of the dead Soldiers family and friends, and shouting obscenities? They seem to be able to get out in force to form prayer groups to pray for the "Lord to take Obama"...or to swoon at a Sarah Palin rally....but I guess they are too busy to get out and counter those that are delivering pain and suffering to the Soldier's family? Why is that? Just wondering......
Well, in part, it's because a lot of these people just aren't clear on the fact that it's not really a matter of *degree.* Frankly, you don't hear much indignance from 'Christians' in general when the Westboro Baptists are *actually* targeting gay people: the manifest indecency of doing this at a funeral, anyone's funeral, is one thing: but when it's straight soldiers? ...That's where the big indignance comes in.

Maybe that's where 'the line' is: they think their own homophobia is essentially right, but that these folks just"go too *far*" at it.

They hasten to *dissociate* from this behavior and these ..well, maniacs, but really didn't care much when they or folks like them turned up at Pride events and the like. Often want to say it's 'really' LGBT people doing the 'bashing,' (frankly, homophobic churches claiming it's about 'bashing Christianity' (What, suddenly they're 'Christians' again?') ) while ignoring the *very real* bashing of LGBT people they are *justifying, is pretty offensive, particularly to those of us for whom 'bashing' in a real and physical sense is a reality.

It's like the Pope's own personal pastor claiming that the Church finally getting called out on the systems of abuse and coverup is akin to the treatment of the Jews in the Holocaust. I mean, Goddess, man, speaking of 'crossing lines,' ...if that's what they think, no wonder *they* get so *backwards.*







QuoteQuote:
honestly, I am not trying to make this political, it is clearly a case of demented souls (or lack of) responsible, but why do we see the Hell's Angels and other Bikers doing the job of those that have hollered the loudest for the past nine years about supporting the Troops?
There's a lot of different kinds of bikers. The Hell's Angels are kind of all wrapped up in organized crime, but most of those I've interacted with (Accepting that if they don't scan right, I probably won't interact with them) seem like pretty solid guys.

QuoteQuote:
Come to think of it...where are those on the left at these atrocities? Don't we have any damn Americans left in America?
Well, here, for one. LGBT rights groups have *long* known about these guys, and been trying to point out what they're doing. I've faced them and their type in person a time or three, actually. When Christians whine they're being "bashed" or persecuted if someone points stuff like this out, or says people saying the same thing as they come to someone else's worship services and events and try and bust them up with bullhorns or otherwise spoil the day, claiming to be doing 'prayer warfare' and trying to intimidate people... Well, generally have no idea what they're talking about and don't want one.

I'd more ask, why do these Phelpses think their 'message' is going to be *received,* and by whom?

I think it's because to them, they haven't 'gone so far' from what the Right says about us, at all.

And maybe that's hard for some to face.

04-03-2010, 08:25 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Well, in part, it's because a lot of these people just aren't clear on the fact that it's not really a matter of *degree.* Frankly, you don't hear much indignance from 'Christians' in general when the Westboro Baptists are *actually* targeting gay people: the manifest indecency of doing this at a funeral, anyone's funeral, is one thing: but when it's straight soldiers? ...That's where the big indignance comes in.

Maybe that's where 'the line' is: they think their own homophobia is essentially right, but that these folks just"go too *far*" at it.

They hasten to *dissociate* from this behavior and these ..well, maniacs, but really didn't care much when they or folks like them turned up at Pride events and the like. Often want to say it's 'really' LGBT people doing the 'bashing,' (frankly, homophobic churches claiming it's about 'bashing Christianity' (What, suddenly they're 'Christians' again?') ) while ignoring the *very real* bashing of LGBT people they are *justifying, is pretty offensive, particularly to those of us for whom 'bashing' in a real and physical sense is a reality.

It's like the Pope's own personal pastor claiming that the Church finally getting called out on the systems of abuse and coverup is akin to the treatment of the Jews in the Holocaust. I mean, Goddess, man, speaking of 'crossing lines,' ...if that's what they think, no wonder *they* get so *backwards.*









There's a lot of different kinds of bikers. The Hell's Angels are kind of all wrapped up in organized crime, but most of those I've interacted with (Accepting that if they don't scan right, I probably won't interact with them) seem like pretty solid guys.



Well, here, for one. LGBT rights groups have *long* known about these guys, and been trying to point out what they're doing. I've faced them and their type in person a time or three, actually. When Christians whine they're being "bashed" or persecuted if someone points stuff like this out, or says people saying the same thing as they come to someone else's worship services and events and try and bust them up with bullhorns or otherwise spoil the day, claiming to be doing 'prayer warfare' and trying to intimidate people... Well, generally have no idea what they're talking about and don't want one.

I'd more ask, why do these Phelpses think their 'message' is going to be *received,* and by whom?

I think it's because to them, they haven't 'gone so far' from what the Right says about us, at all.

And maybe that's hard for some to face.
I'm not in full agreement Ratlady, mainly because you once again failed to distinguish the "Christians" from the Christians. But I will say that you are not too far off, if any, in some of your evaluation here. Far too many "Christians" focus more on homosexuals, abortion, and politics more than they do the words of Jesus.
I have heard many times the words "we are with you in spirit" when there is legitimate work for the Church to involve. Worth a warm bucket of spit.......
Best Regards!
04-03-2010, 08:29 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
When my Dolly says it is time for me to Rock-A Bye aby....I do what I am told...

Just doing what I am told to do......


My Squirrels don't call me the "Big Ugly" for nothing, once again proving they are damn smart!
I thought that was your entry in the Larry King look-a-like contest.
04-03-2010, 08:44 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I'm not in full agreement Ratlady, mainly because you once again failed to distinguish the "Christians" from the Christians.
That's not it at all, I was pointing out how *for you* the label shifts around at convenience.

Understand, too, that from *my* point of view, on most of this I don't much care how you label each other *to* each other. Except where that affects the following: I care what these *labels* mean in the broader society when they are used to *express power, harm and vilify others, claim authority, and divide the nation with identity-politics.*



QuoteQuote:
But I will say that you are not too far off, if any, in some of your evaluation here. Far too many "Christians" focus more on homosexuals, abortion, and politics more than they do the words of Jesus.
This would seem indeed to be the case. I think it would be more mature of you guys in general to accept that this is the state of affairs before you effectively 'gang up' on anyone 'Christianity' can be said to not-approve of, using the government to try and enforce what you don't agree on in the first place.



QuoteQuote:
I have heard many times the words "we are with you in spirit" when there is legitimate work for the Church to involve. Worth a warm bucket of spit.......
Best Regards!

I suppose it has to do with much of the Christian worldview, really: there seems to be a presumption that 'if only we could abolish 'sin' and make everyone obey Christianity, everything'll magically work out.' Simple fact of human instinct is, folks will tend to want to orient to 'threat' first, then try and sort out what it is. If someone provides a 'bogeyman,' especially to deflect from facing their own lives... Many really will think that's the priority.

Probably that's why all the constant 'war' talk from so many churches.

These 'Godhatesf--s' people *also* claim they speak for 'Christians' and deny that those who say they are being cruel and nasty are 'real Christians.'

See?
04-03-2010, 08:56 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
That's not it at all, I was pointing out how *for you* the label shifts around at convenience.

Understand, too, that from *my* point of view, on most of this I don't much care how you label each other *to* each other. Except where that affects the following: I care what these *labels* mean in the broader society when they are used to *express power, harm and vilify others, claim authority, and divide the nation with identity-politics.*





This would seem indeed to be the case. I think it would be more mature of you guys in general to accept that this is the state of affairs before you effectively 'gang up' on anyone 'Christianity' can be said to not-approve of, using the government to try and enforce what you don't agree on in the first place.






I suppose it has to do with much of the Christian worldview, really: there seems to be a presumption that 'if only we could abolish 'sin' and make everyone obey Christianity, everything'll magically work out.' Simple fact of human instinct is, folks will tend to want to orient to 'threat' first, then try and sort out what it is. If someone provides a 'bogeyman,' especially to deflect from facing their own lives... Many really will think that's the priority.

Probably that's why all the constant 'war' talk from so many churches.

These 'Godhatesf--s' people *also* claim they speak for 'Christians' and deny that those who say they are being cruel and nasty are 'real Christians.'

See?

I doubt you would have had a problem with Mother Teresa? She was too busy attempting to follow the teachings of Jesus to get involved in
"Focusing on the Family" and other such right wing political groups. Try to keep in mind, that while she was an exception in today's "Christian" world.....she was not alone....there are others like her, we just hear little about them, they are a threat to "Christians".
Best Regards

04-03-2010, 09:14 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I doubt you would have had a problem with Mother Teresa? She was too busy attempting to follow the teachings of Jesus to get involved in
"Focusing on the Family" and other such right wing political groups. Try to keep in mind, that while she was an exception in today's "Christian" world.....she was not alone....there are others like her, we just hear little about them, they are a threat to "Christians".
Best Regards
Mother Theresa was neither perfect, nor, by her own controversial admissions, really a 'believer' either. 'Canonizing' her to prove something about 'believing Christians' belies that the situation was a fair bit muddier on both the ideas of her 'sainthood' and how she has been used to vilify others, and, well, how complex the situation really was.

Like back up there, where when I said this about the clergy abuse:

QuoteQuote:
These priests actually think they're doing the victims a favor in one way or another. By 'dealing with your sin' or however they spin it.
You said:


QuoteQuote:
I doubt that....they are just pure perverts.

You're once again there 'defending the faith' so to speak, and *completely* ignoring the fact that I faced this stuff in person, not to mention the accounts of others.

That were also 'doubted' and called 'evil' and blamed for the whole thing... Why? Cause that's a dark side of some of the very beliefs these &#&$! 's were trying to 'cope' with... And that you espouse. Much of it comes of them trying to treat sexuality and 'sin' *exactly* as they were taught to, and as in fact *you* seem to advocate.

Getting all messed-up and *predatory* about it *happens.* They demonize their own feelings, put on the cloth to either indulge or deny them, put it all in a framework of 'sin' ...and treat others as, not people, but *their own 'sin.'* Church policy even has encouraged and done this: the victims aren't people, ...the 'problem' to them is 'priests sexually sinning.' And they don't *care* about the abuse if it isn't involving a 'sexual act' even then, come down to it.

When someone calls them on this, we have the Pope's own personal pastor claiming that the results of *getting caught at all this * are 'Catholic-bashing' and even, to great derision, the same thing as Jews experienced during the Holocaust.

I mean... What?

I know something about how these bastiches operate, Rupert, cause I *lived* under it. (And conversely, a bit about them as people. Yes, people. ) When I say some didn't make it, I mean it. When I speak on this, it's cause I *watched* these dudes rationalizing what they were doing. *Watched* the people who knew but wouldn't speak or stand up. When I say they are trying to deceive when they say that boys being the only victims is much more about the particular vulnerabilities, not something about sexual orientation, I mean that, too. When I ran away from home, about the first thing that happened was one of those priests put the moves on *me.* Attempting to use blackmail. (A lot of people's futures really were at stake: not just mine: things were arranged so.) He wasn't counting on just how aware of the situation I was, had been, and just how prepared I was for something like that to come up.



Nor on my being able, while explaining all this, to say with great sincerity that he could expect his physical state to be somewhat impaired if his hand didn't get off me. I'm not a vindictive person, but I do treasure the moment.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 04-03-2010 at 09:39 AM.
04-03-2010, 10:17 AM   #40
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You're pretty much hopeless Ratlady......when you find fault with Mother Teresa, you are just a died in the wool anti-God, anti-Christian pagan with no willingness for compromise. Suit yourself, but I am more than a little certain that there are those that can use your reasoning for a long winded rant about how some homosexual tried to molest them at some point in their life, and therefore by Ratlady logic, all homosexuals are sick perverts. You want to keep playing that game Ratlady, you know I will play, and you know you won't like it.

You despise anything of God...we get the message Ratlady, but you feel the need to pound it in at every opportunity. I have every right to counter your insanity with some of my own.......and you are getting closer and closer to forcing me to exercise it.
Beast Regards
04-03-2010, 10:38 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
You're pretty much hopeless Ratlady......when you find fault with Mother Teresa, you are just a died in the wool anti-God, anti-Christian pagan with no willingness for compromise.
Quite the contrary. I'm just saying she's no 'absolute.' As she's so often used to be.

She was a real human being who didn't think she knew a darn thing, actually, and while caught between some stuff, tried to do the best she could. It *wasn't* always 'saintly.' That's a matter of record.

So what?

Point is, your definitions shift around.



QuoteQuote:
Suit yourself, but I am more than a little certain that there are those that can use your reasoning for a long winded rant about how some homosexual tried to molest them at some point in their life, and therefore by Ratlady logic, all homosexuals are sick perverts. You want to keep playing that game Ratlady, you know I will play, and you know you won't like it.
Err. why do you do like they say and blame 'homosexuals' when I point out that actually the targets aren't really chosen by *sex* so much as *vulnerability?* You've agreed with this, after all. But still here you are.

*You* claim there can't be anything systemic or complex, there, just that they're 'pure perverts.'

I say there's nothing 'pure' about it, even if some claim so, one way or another.

And, no, that's not *my* 'logic,' that's how *you* project your own.


And, yes, again, you think your own opinion overrides actual experience. And other people's lives. And reason itself.

QuoteQuote:
You despise anything of God...
So you claim. But. What are those things? Or is that just a label you shift at convenience?

So you claim. But. *Why?*

QuoteQuote:
we get the message Ratlady, but you feel the need to pound it in at every opportunity. I have every right to counter your insanity with some of my own.......and you are getting closer and closer to forcing me to exercise it.
Beast Regards
Never responsible for your choices, are you?

Are you choosing to 'exercise insanity?' 'Forced to?' To do what? Eternal cry of the abuser, that is, you know. "You make me do this!"

I know it's a mess, man, but.

You can choose.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 04-03-2010 at 10:51 AM.
04-04-2010, 11:32 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Quite the contrary. I'm just saying she's no 'absolute.' As she's so often used to be.

She was a real human being who didn't think she knew a darn thing, actually, and while caught between some stuff, tried to do the best she could. It *wasn't* always 'saintly.' That's a matter of record.

So what?

Point is, your definitions shift around.





Err. why do you do like they say and blame 'homosexuals' when I point out that actually the targets aren't really chosen by *sex* so much as *vulnerability?* You've agreed with this, after all. But still here you are.

*You* claim there can't be anything systemic or complex, there, just that they're 'pure perverts.'

I say there's nothing 'pure' about it, even if some claim so, one way or another.

And, no, that's not *my* 'logic,' that's how *you* project your own.


And, yes, again, you think your own opinion overrides actual experience. And other people's lives. And reason itself.



So you claim. But. What are those things? Or is that just a label you shift at convenience?

So you claim. But. *Why?*



Never responsible for your choices, are you?

Are you choosing to 'exercise insanity?' 'Forced to?' To do what? Eternal cry of the abuser, that is, you know. "You make me do this!"

I know it's a mess, man, but.

You can choose.

You are right Ratlady, your dribble is not worth a response, no one here is going to feel any differently about LGBT's because of your agenda....and if anything they will take a more dim view than ever. You have, and continue, to set back any progress gays have made with each rant you post here. In fact, I see you as LGBT's worst nightmare.....a person that makes them all look like a bunch of ranting idiots, out to convert the world to some sort of pagan belief and perverted lifestyle. I never saw LGBT's that way before you showed me the light....
Beast Regards!
04-04-2010, 11:35 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
You are right Ratlady, your dribble is not worth a response, no one here is going to feel any differently about LGBT's because of your agenda....and if anything they will take a more dim view than ever. You have, and continue, to set back any progress gays have made with each rant you post here. In fact, I see you as LGBT's worst nightmare.....a person that makes them all look like a bunch of ranting idiots, out to convert the world to some sort of pagan belief and perverted lifestyle. I never saw LGBT's that way before you showed me the light....
Beast Regards!
We may actually agree.
04-04-2010, 11:58 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
You are right Ratlady, your dribble is not worth a response, no one here is going to feel any differently about LGBT's because of your agenda....and if anything they will take a more dim view than ever. You have, and continue, to set back any progress gays have made with each rant you post here. In fact, I see you as LGBT's worst nightmare.....a person that makes them all look like a bunch of ranting idiots, out to convert the world to some sort of pagan belief and perverted lifestyle. I never saw LGBT's that way before you showed me the light....
Beast Regards!
Claiming that someone confirms your bigotry when you claim they say things they did not, does not mean they, or I, originated that bigotry, Rupert.

All it says is that you think you have the right to abuse and oppress an entire community if you disapprove of what you say one of them says... Even if they don't actually say that.

You project, sir. You're the one who wants to *convert* everyone. I merely counter your insistence that 'all these people' are what *you* started out by accusing.

If there's no bigotry, what are you trying to justify when you say, "I will now treat all LBGT people exactly as I have done all along, and blame you for it retroactively!"

It's nonsense, Rupert. And it's what you brought with you to begin with.
04-04-2010, 04:04 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Claiming that someone confirms your bigotry when you claim they say things they did not, does not mean they, or I, originated that bigotry, Rupert.

All it says is that you think you have the right to abuse and oppress an entire community if you disapprove of what you say one of them says... Even if they don't actually say that.

You project, sir. You're the one who wants to *convert* everyone. I merely counter your insistence that 'all these people' are what *you* started out by accusing.

If there's no bigotry, what are you trying to justify when you say, "I will now treat all LBGT people exactly as I have done all along, and blame you for it retroactively!"

It's nonsense, Rupert. And it's what you brought with you to begin with.

It is what you would like for others to believe Ratlady, but my life proves otherwise. I have never been or been known as a gay basher, and although I could easily persecute gays, I have never done so in my life. You are not the object of persecution here because you are gay, or whatever thingy it is you are, it is because of your constant ranting and lying that inflames most here, your constant attacks on Christians and other Religions that consider your lifestyle evil, sick and perverted, and your inablilty to stick to the topics at hand. It is not that we want to eliminate gays....we want to eliminate ignorance and bigotry, and that comes from you more than anyone on this Forum.
Beast Regards!
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