[Ratmagiclady]

Whether the man was gay or not doesn't matter one bit. Not to me anyway. If someone is capable of and willing to, pick up a rifle and march into battle on my behalf, it doesn't matter to me if he/she/it wants to plaster their gay pride flag on their chest. I only hope that they come back alive and well as I would like to see every US soldier do.

Is a good post, Jeff. Actually, the premise of all this protest wasn't that the soldier was gay at *all,* ...the Phelpses 'church' wants people to *blame* the existence and insufficient-persecution of gay folks for their children dying in war, or anything bad that befalls America.

Just like Falwell and Robertson and others were telling people 9/11 was *their* fault for not persecuting gays and Pagans and atheists and feminists enough.

Not that the WBC won't go to funerals to abuse people who are grieving for their murdered gay children, then the 'Your child is in Hell' signs come out.

[Rupert]

Those bikers are among my heroes.
Agreed.

That Westboro Baptist Church are nothing but sadistic religious *thugs* ...the homophobia they use an excuse to hate America and abuse everyone in sight, is largely the same thing when put more 'politiely,' though. They say it's 'just the Bible' when they wave signs calling LGBT people *beasts,* complete with citation, actually.
Agreed.

It's not just a matter of 'overzealousness,' though, they seem to have gone way past fundamentalist Christianity and made some kind of hateful death cult out of it. They're overtaken by nothing but hatred and fear, and don't care who they harm about it...
Agreed.

That, Rupert, you could call 'evil,' I think. They've certainly 'got backwards.' But their homophobia comes from the same place as any other religious-based motivations.
Agreed, and Thank you!

And, no, Booger, the Catholic Church doesn't "manufacture homosexuality:" it manufactures the "sin" of homosexuality and blames homosexuals for what it does, teaches, and covers up for.
Agreed.

A full third of the victims are *girls,* people keep forgetting. It's not about a healthy adult orientation, it's about *power, control, and these 'sin dramas* They see victims as 'sins' and not *people.*
Agreed.

These priests actually think they're doing the victims a favor in one way or another. By 'dealing with your sin' or however they spin it.
I doubt that....they are just pure perverts.

Boys are targeted more, for the sexual end of abuse, anyway, a) cause of the closet-case factor, (the clergy being supposedly the only respectable place for gay people to go be celibate, which is a pressure-cooker of itself,) but b) Because the very homophobia the priests teach isolates and silences the victims. Girls are theoretically better-protected: virginity's something of a commodity and it's less certain the victims would be blamed if they talk. Also it's more likely we *would* talk.
Agreed.

Either way, it's *vulnerability* they target. People who are outcasts or have trouble at home or are considered 'suspect' of being queer, 'sluts,' 'weird,' learning-disabled, or already traumatized in one way or another catch a lot of it. Not believing in Christianity, is itself something that can open one up for ostracization and being targeted for 'spiritual counseling.'
Possible, no doubt.

The Church likes to think that 'more of the same,' ...blaming homosexuality and saying that makes people pedophiles or pederasts, of course calling LBGT people 'objectively disordered,' ...ie not credible witnesses a priori, (Also simply ignoring the physical and emotional abuse that's also pretty rampant) ...ignoring female victims, and blaming the rest... is going to solve things. People don't seem to be buying that anymore, at least.
No, and that is good that they are not.

So, no, they don't 'manufacture homosexuality' ...Just a whole lot of damage.
Agreed, Homosexuality is not manufactured.

Oh, and they don't actually abuse more than all other churches or anything, it just comes in a different and more institutionalized form.

No, you are wrong here Ratlady.....there are tens of thousands of Churches that deplore this kind of sick behavior. Many Churches preach against homosexuality or other "sins" but do not promote hatred and violence, in any manner. Maybe you haven't seen them, but they are there. Of course, if you are referring to those Churches that have sold out to politics, then you are right on target....but try to distinguish between the two, there is a real difference.
Best Regards!

BTW- Did you see how right my Squirrels are? I've told you they are smart!

[Ratmagiclady]

No, you are wrong here Ratlady.....there are tens of thousands of Churches that deplore this kind of sick behavior.

I didn't say there *weren't,* Rupert, but deploring something and not *doing* it are two different things, anyway.

That's just the kind of denial you speak that meant no one believed the victims or anyone while it was happening since anyone can remember. "This can't be happening." It does happen, not *everywhere,* but it does seem it could pop up about anywhere, ...the amount of hierarchy and control in fact seems to have a lot to do with what forms they take.

Many Churches preach against homosexuality or other "sins" but do not promote hatred and violence, in any manner. Maybe you haven't seen them, but they are there.

Oh, I know. They do tend to be 'progressive' ones.

Many also do promote hatred and violence, and just claim that it isn't what they are doing. That whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' ...which is really doublespeak when you're defining a class of people and their entire lives *as* "sin."

Of course, if you are referring to those Churches that have sold out to politics, then you are right on target....but try to distinguish between the two, there is a real difference.

Best Regards!

BTW- Did you see how right my Squirrels are? I've told you they are smart!

Missed it.

As for 'distinguishing between the two, it wasn't my insistence to say that there *are* no churches without these forms of abuse, just that they exist and that in fact it's not just the Catholics. Statistically, (if the statistics I'm referring to are to be believed, of course, ) they have no more *perps* than anyone else, but these perps have a lot more support to have lots of *victims,* and it all tends to come out at once. And is also particularly egregious to people's minds because there is *supposed* to be some control and responsibility there.

Also, incidentally, my experience of Catholic school and institutions also shows there's a pretty pervasive low-grade level of harassment/threat, even from clergy and laypeople I don't actually think ever acted on things. The dynamic's definitely there and probably needs to be addressed at all levels: the homophobia and misogyny are often all too pervasive: it may not mean these are all leading to *crimes,* but it sure ain't feeling safe, either.

[Rupert]

I didn't say there *weren't,* Rupert, but deploring something and not *doing* it are two different things, anyway.

That's just the kind of denial you speak that meant no one believed the victims or anyone while it was happening since anyone can remember. "This can't be happening." It does happen, not *everywhere,* but it does seem it could pop up about anywhere, ...the amount of hierarchy and control in fact seems to have a lot to do with what forms they take.





Oh, I know. They do tend to be 'progressive' ones.

Many also do promote hatred and violence, and just claim that it isn't what they are doing. That whole 'love the sinner, hate the sin' ...which is really doublespeak when you're defining a class of people and their entire lives *as* "sin."




Missed it.

As for 'distinguishing between the two, it wasn't my insistence to say that there *are* no churches without these forms of abuse, just that they exist and that in fact it's not just the Catholics. Statistically, (if the statistics I'm referring to are to be believed, of course, ) they have no more *perps* than anyone else, but these perps have a lot more support to have lots of *victims,* and it all tends to come out at once. And is also particularly egregious to people's minds because there is *supposed* to be some control and responsibility there.

I pretty much agree here Ratlady, and the differences are not large enough to argue over. If you could make a clear distinction between real Churches, and Political Churches, real Christians and Political Christians in your future posts, we might get along better than you might imagine.
Best Regards!

[JeffJS]

Is a good post, Jeff. Actually, the premise of all this protest wasn't that the soldier was gay at *all,* ...the Phelpses 'church' wants people to *blame* the existence and insufficient-persecution of gay folks for their children dying in war, or anything bad that befalls America.

Just like Falwell and Robertson and others were telling people 9/11 was *their* fault for not persecuting gays and Pagans and atheists and feminists enough.

Not that the WBC won't go to funerals to abuse people who are grieving for their murdered gay children, then the 'Your child is in Hell' signs come out.

Whether the protests are based on lifestyle or not, my point was, it shouldn't matter. Just like our military, Bullets don't ask and don't tell (I think that is the DUMBEST and most pointless policy ever put on paper BTW). People who thump the bible with one hand and then pass judgment while waving the other, too Me, are the biggest hypocrites in the world. THAT is the problem I have with Church People. To tell a woman (for instance) that she's going to burn in hell because she likes to hold her girlfriend's hand and whatever else they enjoy doing, is passing judgment. In Christianity, and I suspect other religions, that judgment is reserved to the deity. If it's true that the gay child is burning in hell, then the ones carrying the signs will be right there next to him/her.

Fallwell and Robertson are probably somewhere spooning each other as we speak and should be beat in the head with a baseball bat. No one Deserves to die, especially 3000 or so people who were just doing their jobs at their desks one sunny morning.

[Ratmagiclady]

I pretty much agree here Ratlady, and the differences are not large enough to argue over. If you could make a clear distinction between real Churches, and Political Churches, real Christians and Political Christians in your future posts, we might get along better than you might imagine.
Best Regards!

Well, Rupert, on that old argument, the fact is that the label 'Christians' has a tendency to shift around when people make these distinctions, one minute what you say is 'The Will of the Majority, Christianity, and all Religion'.... the next it's like, "Oh, they aren't 'real Christians,' so it has nothing to do with what I'm saying, myself."

If what you're *teaching* is used by these hateful people and abusers, then just maybe there's a connection after all, ...When you defame others and call it 'God' ...Someone might believe you. Maybe you don't physically bash anyone, but it's not far from what you say sometimes. I can tell you from experience, much closer than you think, in fact.

So take warning, is all. Particularly about denial. And particularly about justifying the dehumanization of others.

---------- Post added 04-02-2010 at 12:31 PM ----------

Fallwell and Robertson are probably somewhere spooning each other as we speak and should be beat in the head with a baseball bat. No one Deserves to die, especially 3000 or so people who were just doing their jobs at their desks one sunny morning.

Well, not to say they wouldn't be prime candidates for a little bit of poetic justice in their next lifetime, but if they deserved such beatings, the time would not be now. Things look different when you're dead. Hopefully that's lesson enough. May they find better learnings than what was in their heads, ...and so may we.

[seacapt]

I pretty much agree here Ratlady, and the differences are not large enough to argue over. If you could make a clear distinction between real Churches, and Political Churches, real Christians and Political Christians in your future posts, we might get along better than you might imagine.
Best Regards!

April 2 , 2010 a date that will go down in infamey!

[Rupert]

April 2 , 2010 a date that will go down in infamey!

And it is not even on April Fools Day!

Regards!
Your Pal
Rupert

[Green_Manelishi]

The celebration of violence by the young to me seems to be conditioned as acceptable behavior by violent movies and video games... We give the message that this sort of stuff is cool and there are no consequences.

Well that's just not true. Ask the experts, they will tell you music, movies, books and video games have no effect on anyone's behavior. On the other hand, a subliminal message like "Buy CocaCola" or "Kill Yourself" will cause behavior.

[seacapt]

Well that's just not true. Ask the experts, they will tell you music, movies, books and video games have no effect on anyone's behavior. On the other hand, a subliminal message like "Buy CocaCola" or "Kill Yourself" will cause behavior.

Although it may be true that media does not cause anti social behavior it does influence it. One of the problems is that films , TV , music and video games today glorify "The Bad Guys". If you go back a few years there was violence (not gore for its own sake) in films but there was a clear cut message of right and wrong. The good guy usually won and the bad guys got their just rewards. Even in the case of the tragic hero there were clear messages. This is no longer the case. We need more Clint Eastwoods , Charles Bronsons and John Waynes!

[Rupert]

Although it may be true that media does not cause anti social behavior it does influence it. One of the problems is that films , TV , music and video games today glorify "The Bad Guys". If you go back a few years there was violence (not gore for its own sake) in films but there was a clear cut message of right and wrong. The good guy usually won and the bad guys got their just rewards. Even in the case of the tragic hero there were clear messages. This is no longer the case. We need more Clint Eastwoods , Charles Bronsons and John Waynes!

There are a lot of "old things" that I no longer see in our society. I understand that every generation looks back and misses the "old times" to some extent, but if this generation ever looks back at the times we are in now in their old age with any joyful thoughts........I can only imagine what that will say of the future.
Best Regards!
Your Pal

Although it may be true that media does not cause anti social behavior it does influence it. One of the problems is that films , TV , music and video games today glorify "The Bad Guys". If you go back a few years there was violence (not gore for its own sake) in films but there was a clear cut message of right and wrong. The good guy usually won and the bad guys got their just rewards. Even in the case of the tragic hero there were clear messages. This is no longer the case. We need more Clint Eastwoods , Charles Bronsons and John Waynes!

I'm not 100% sure but I think his post was sarcasm.

[Artesian]

Some here may think that I cross the line often, or too often, or get too close......may be, just depends on your sensitivity or the thickness of your hide.

However, I am seeing more and more episodes in the "real world" where the line of human decency has been crossed....mutilated really...by some that think they have the right to be sick and perverted at the expense of innocent victims. A case in point is a story on Chris Matthews tonight (Yes, I know you guys on the right hate him, but keep listening). It concerned a father that sued a group of "Church People" for picketing his sons funeral....his son that was killed in Iraq, because the young man deserved death as God's punishment for America's tolerance of homosexuals. Here is a grieving family, burying their young son, and hearing and seeing a horde of perverts chanting that he deserved to die....and much worse. The young boy was not even gay....they do this at the funeral of any Soldier that dies in combat when the opportunity arises. Would it have mattered if he had been gay? Hell no, it wouldn't be any less vulgar.

So the father sued them.....won the first round, then lost on appeal and was ordered to pay the legal fees of the "Church People". It is now headed for the Supreme Court, and let's hope that bunch of losers can get this one right.

While we all have broad rights and can have a wide range of beliefs and opinions, even as we do on this Forum....there is a sort of sickness that has engulfed our Nation when we see this sort of activity that is so obviously out off character of the intent of our freedom of speech that we need to make our intolerance of it known . I hope I can get some bipartisan agreement here, it would make me feel better about our group and restore a little of my personal confidence in our country....not that anyone here owes me a thing....but I do think we owe it to each other....and to the father of that young man and his family, as well as all the others that have been forced to endure this atrocity.
Best Regards
Rupert

Well as you already know, it is just wrong! No more to say about it. Just disgustingly wrong.
A

[seacapt]

I'm not 100% sure but I think his post was sarcasm.

I just don't know but I'd hate to have to be corrected twice in two days so lets ask him. Hey Green was your post real or sarcasm?

[Rupert]

I'm not trying to take over the Ratlady's job of bashing Christians, but I do have to ask....where are all those good right leaning, Troop Supporting Christians, when these perverts are waving their sick posters in the faces of the dead Soldiers family and friends, and shouting obscenities? They seem to be able to get out in force to form prayer groups to pray for the "Lord to take Obama"...or to swoon at a Sarah Palin rally....but I guess they are too busy to get out and counter those that are delivering pain and suffering to the Soldier's family? Why is that? Just wondering......honestly, I am not trying to make this political, it is clearly a case of demented souls (or lack of) responsible, but why do we see the Hell's Angels and other Bikers doing the job of those that have hollered the loudest for the past nine years about supporting the Troops?
Come to think of it...where are those on the left at these atrocities? Don't we have any damn Americans left in America? Couldn't we at least get together and hire a couple of thousand illegals to stand in for us and counter demonstrate? We hire them for our yard work and to cook and clean for us, and wash our cars.......why not to demonstrate for us while we sit on our fat asses and watch Oprah?
Best Regards!