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04-04-2010, 08:41 AM   #1
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Is the Devil real?

I know there are many folks here who do not believe in GOD but are demons real? Is Satan (the devil) himself real?

04-04-2010, 09:51 AM   #2
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I think the idea's done quite enough damage just as a memeplex: certainly, as I've said abundantly to those who like to level allegations and allegations, ...not every worldview *requires* one.

The character himself is really a composite of dualistic projections of 'evil' (not to mention certain funcionaries *of* the Christian God, ie 'the accuser.' ) ...onto both figures inside and outside the 'Judeo-Christian' worldview, and of course, applied to anyone else's Gods whenever some other religion 'needed demonizing.'

As such, more of an accusation than anything that needs be a 'real' figure. Within Christian religion, the figure seems to be implicit in many of the corruptions to be found there: it's how many of them externalize some of their own conflicts, generally to place them on some 'other.'

As for 'bad spirits' in general, at least ninety-nine percent of that is actually just a reflection of what we bring with us. Undue fear of such things actually only makes them stronger and brings about the very 'evils' one is ostensibly 'fighting.'

The idea of 'malefic otherworldly *intelligences* is somewhat more problematic, especially given just these dynamics: first and foremost, such perceptions are likely to be projections of people's own fear and blame and conditioning. Either way, people, essentially, are the ones who supply the masks. That's why they're so easy to place on whatever 'others' are convenient.

Not everything in the spirit world is friendly to humans, but that doesn't mean it exists for the purpose of 'opposing God' any more than does the wolf or a harmful microbe. In my general belief systems, no 'devils' are necessary as such, because we don't need to explain away why the world doesn't look to people like an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent architect is (or is 'supposed to be') in control of everything.

To me, the 'problem of evil,' of Christian philosophy isn't about the world, it's about trying to reconcile a worldview and agenda which I don't believe is the actual state of affairs.

Such fears and accusations do, of course, and have had a way throughout history, of taking on a terrible life of their own. This doesn't mean they were necessarily anyone else's *idea* but our own.

Personally, I suggest that we don't feed them.
04-04-2010, 10:03 AM   #3
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Are ghosts real? Are faeries real? How about unicorns?
04-04-2010, 10:07 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
Are ghosts real? Are faeries real? How about unicorns?
"Real" can be just a problem for the literalistic mind. Is a harmful illusion 'real?'


(Oh, I'm remiss: Happy Easter, you guys. )


Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 04-04-2010 at 10:22 AM.
04-04-2010, 10:15 AM   #5
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Are there actual humanistic beings lurking around waiting to snag our souls? No. IMHO.

But there is fear, hate, anger, divisiveness, prejudice, stereotyping, scape-goating and all manner of other anti-social or self-destructive behavior.

Life is a battle between "good" and "evil" in so much as everyone has these things within them. We "fall into hell" when we fail to remember the importance of community, cooperation, love, caring, joy, and a positive spirit with which to view the world. We make our own hell on earth with our own decisions, behaviors and attitudes. But there is not a horned beast waiting with his ovens. Those were metaphors that people have tried to use, and which some people have tried to make 'concrete' - real, threatening, controlling.

God is not a white-haired old man riding on clouds. We actually know that now that we've been to the moon and back ourselves. We've also disproven the former belief that thunderbolts are heavenly spears cast to earth by God to punish us 'in 'his' everlasting love.' (?!?!)

To me God is the undeniable interconnectedness between all life and our surroundings: the inexplicable and ultimately unknowable incredible force that brings life into existence and to which life surrenders in the end.
04-04-2010, 11:20 AM   #6
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Of course the devil is real! You look around at the world we live in and tell me that what you see is just Ratlady "Backward Thinking".....then tell me where you find the "Forward Thinking" that she apparently thinks will replace Evil?
God says both the Devil and Evil are real....if you don't believe in God...you will have to wait a while before you find out for sure....and you surely will. There are many people full of the devil......some right here ranting in favor of practices God has deemed evil.....but others just see as "Backward Thinking", while they wallow in their own perverted lifestyles.....
Regards!
04-04-2010, 11:43 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Of course the devil is real! You look around at the world we live in and tell me that what you see is just Ratlady "Backward Thinking".....then tell me where you find the "Forward Thinking" that she apparently thinks will replace Evil?
God says both the Devil and Evil are real....if you don't believe in God...you will have to wait a while before you find out for sure....and you surely will. There are many people full of the devil......some right here ranting in favor of practices God has deemed evil.....but others just see as "Backward Thinking", while they wallow in their own perverted lifestyles.....
Regards!
That's not a *definition,* Rupert. That's an *accusation.* Premised, in fact, on something *you* say I say which is not true.
We've done that discussion over and over, though.

People 'getting backwards' from what their goodness intends is not the same as this 'backward thinking' with which you claim I dismiss what you simply label as 'evil' ...then of course extend this label to people who have harmed no one.

I assure you, I've literally *forgotten* more about 'fighting evil' than you can probably imagine.

Pointing and saying 'Evil!' does not bring more goodness. Only more blindness and suffering.

A small act of hope is better than a thousand swings at shadows. Often there's *people* in those shadows, and behind those masks you place on them.

I told you of the story of Hercules/Herakles? How his famous labors began? What he was atoning for was what he did when someone confuddled his senses and reason, put 'demonic' masks on innocents, (his own children) and while he was in his delerium, directing him to slaughter them. As 'evil.'

This is an important lesson for anyone who will point and say 'Evil.'

'Evil to him who sees evil.'

Let's be careful out there.



And, it's not that I 'don't believe in 'God,' Rupert. I could easily apply Yucatan's definition to Her. Do I believe 'He' has anything in particular to do with your accusations and biases?

Can't say I think so, no. All I see of *that* "God" is... You.

.

04-04-2010, 01:00 PM   #8
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I believe there are people who are the devil incarnate--who behave exactly like the devil would.

But I don't believe it's caused by anything spiritual.
04-04-2010, 01:47 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ira Quote
I believe there are people who are the devil incarnate--who behave exactly like the devil would.

But I don't believe it's caused by anything spiritual.
Definitely have to agree with that. There are many evil people in the world. And others who want to attack evil and in doing so, commit evil. We have to "be better" than evil people and watch the line between attacking evil and being overcome by the darkness and behaving evil in return.
04-04-2010, 01:51 PM   #10
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Philosophy

IIRC some famous phylosopher (Plato I think) said that everything that one can think of is real because it exist in the world of ideas.

But I was never good at Philosophy so don't take me for granted on this.

Have fun,
Luis
04-04-2010, 01:54 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by ratmagiclady Quote
that's not a *definition,* rupert. That's an *accusation.* premised, in fact, on something *you* say i say which is not true.
We've done that discussion over and over, though.

People 'getting backwards' from what their goodness intends is not the same as this 'backward thinking' with which you claim i dismiss what you simply label as 'evil' ...then of course extend this label to people who have harmed no one.

I assure you, i've literally *forgotten* more about 'fighting evil' than you can probably imagine.

pointing and saying 'evil!' does not bring more goodness. Only more blindness and suffering.

A small act of hope is better than a thousand swings at shadows. Often there's *people* in those shadows, and behind those masks you place on them.


i told you of the story of hercules/herakles? How his famous labors began? What he was atoning for was what he did when someone confuddled his senses and reason, put 'demonic' masks on innocents, (his own children) and while he was in his delerium, directing him to slaughter them. As 'evil.'

this is an important lesson for anyone who will point and say 'evil.'

'evil to him who sees evil.'

let's be careful out there.



And, it's not that i 'don't believe in 'god,' rupert. I could easily apply yucatan's definition to her. Do i believe 'he' has anything in particular to do with your accusations and biases?

Can't say i think so, no. All i see of *that* "god" is... You.

.
thank you!
04-04-2010, 02:21 PM   #12
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Ira, if some people are the devil incarnate, then they have no hope of doing any good at all then? What then of the countless people in history who started off committing heinous crimes and turned themselves around to become beacons of peace and hope in their lifetimes?
yucatan, be weary about judging others - we are no 'better' than anyone else on our own accord, even if we think we are because we don't kill, steal or cheat... or do we?.
04-04-2010, 02:37 PM   #13
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I believe that just as God lives in all of us, so does the devil. Its up to each of us which one we listen to.
04-04-2010, 03:41 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
I know there are many folks here who do not believe in GOD but are demons real? Is Satan (the devil) himself real?
Most definitely yes.
04-04-2010, 03:56 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I think the idea's done quite enough damage just as a memeplex: certainly, as I've said abundantly to those who like to level allegations and allegations, ...not every worldview *requires* one.

The character himself is really a composite of dualistic projections of 'evil' (not to mention certain funcionaries *of* the Christian God, ie 'the accuser.' ) ...onto both figures inside and outside the 'Judeo-Christian' worldview, and of course, applied to anyone else's Gods whenever some other religion 'needed demonizing.'

As such, more of an accusation than anything that needs be a 'real' figure. Within Christian religion, the figure seems to be implicit in many of the corruptions to be found there: it's how many of them externalize some of their own conflicts, generally to place them on some 'other.'

As for 'bad spirits' in general, at least ninety-nine percent of that is actually just a reflection of what we bring with us. Undue fear of such things actually only makes them stronger and brings about the very 'evils' one is ostensibly 'fighting.'

The idea of 'malefic otherworldly *intelligences* is somewhat more problematic, especially given just these dynamics: first and foremost, such perceptions are likely to be projections of people's own fear and blame and conditioning. Either way, people, essentially, are the ones who supply the masks. That's why they're so easy to place on whatever 'others' are convenient.

Not everything in the spirit world is friendly to humans, but that doesn't mean it exists for the purpose of 'opposing God' any more than does the wolf or a harmful microbe. In my general belief systems, no 'devils' are necessary as such, because we don't need to explain away why the world doesn't look to people like an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent architect is (or is 'supposed to be') in control of everything.

To me, the 'problem of evil,' of Christian philosophy isn't about the world, it's about trying to reconcile a worldview and agenda which I don't believe is the actual state of affairs.

Such fears and accusations do, of course, and have had a way throughout history, of taking on a terrible life of their own. This doesn't mean they were necessarily anyone else's *idea* but our own.

Personally, I suggest that we don't feed them.

So if you could build yourself a couple of cities to live in peace and tranquility, out of harms way from Fundies and Christians........you could eliminate "Evil" from your world Ratlady? Would you name them after your own kind....Sodom/Gomorrah? You might be thinking of building underground....and pretty deep too......but not so deep as to crowd out the Devil.
Beast Regards!
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