Obama suggests value-added tax may be an option

gokenin · 04-23-2010, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by Bramela

23%++??? Wow, that is a slug. In Australia it is 11 or 12% Max.

---------- Post added 04-23-2010 at 05:00 PM ----------

23%++??? Wow, that is a slug. In Australia it is 11 or 12% Max. And certain products and services are exempt!

its at 11 or 12 % but is that what it started at and if it did how long has that price been constant ? I again wonder if a flat 4 or 5% sales taxes across the board as a national sales tax would have been just as effective in raising revenue? Do you find yourself looking to buy stuff outside of Australia to try and get around the VAT tax? I know here in Massachusettes people go to New Hampshire simply to avoid a 5% sales tax if they can.

graphicgr8s · 04-23-2010, 06:02 AM

Originally posted by Bramela

23%++??? Wow, that is a slug. In Australia it is 11 or 12% Max. And certain products and services are exempt!

Bruce certain items would also be exempted here also. The poor would actually wind up with the tax rebated. Again, you would have full control of your tax burden on the discretionary items. So you could actually pay less.

Rupert · 04-23-2010, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Bruce certain items would also be exempted here also. The poor would actually wind up with the tax rebated. Again, you would have full control of your tax burden on the discretionary items. So you could actually pay less.

So what you are saying George, is that you would support a massive tax increase....if it came from the right? Were you sitting in the Lap of a Fat Cat when he told you to say that? Was he tightening your little collar as he told you what to type? Break loose George....they have you in a death lock and are squeezing the life out of you and the other little puppies that think you need Fat Cats for survival in the big ugly world of Socialists. Maybe they will not only drop coverage for those with breast cancer, maybe they will tax it? A tax on getting sick....sounds like something your "Conservatives" would come up with. Of course, those in the upper 5% would be exempt.......that include you George?
Regards!

GeneV · 04-23-2010, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

The tax would be 23%. Do you think that after income tax SS. Medicare and other taxes masquerading as "fees" you pay less? Remember, you get 100% of your paycheck. You only pay the tax if you buy a new item. The tax is not collected on used stuff. Everyone pays the tax. Tourists, illegals, whoever, it doesn't matter. There are no loopholes. You control your tax outlay.

Best yet it abolishes the Infernal Refart Service

I understood that the tax is 30% if you include FICA, but either way it is much more than the 8% you mentioned.

Abolishing the IRS is a pipe dream. Collecting a sales tax will require an agency, and there will be all kinds of cheats no one has yet imagined. The proposal in the "fair" tax plan to exempt "business to business" is a whole you could fly a 747 through, unless you reinstate an intrusive enforcement agency.

---------- Post added 04-23-2010 at 10:03 AM ----------

Originally posted by gokenin

its at 11 or 12 % but is that what it started at and if it did how long has that price been constant ? I again wonder if a flat 4 or 5% sales taxes across the board as a national sales tax would have been just as effective in raising revenue? Do you find yourself looking to buy stuff outside of Australia to try and get around the VAT tax? I know here in Massachusettes people go to New Hampshire simply to avoid a 5% sales tax if they can.

With internet sales, only a national sales tax has any possiblity of working in the long term.

As discussed above, whatever tax is enacted will generate cheats and legal avoidance.

Parallax · 04-23-2010, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

The proposal in the "fair" tax plan to exempt "business to business" is a whole you could fly a 747 through, unless you reinstate an intrusive enforcement agency.

I have the feeling we would see an ENORMOUS jump in the number of LLCs and S-Corps.

GeneV · 04-23-2010, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

I have the feeling we would see an ENORMOUS jump in the number of LLCs and S-Corps.

I would be busy, and my Pentax collection would expand.

graphicgr8s · 04-23-2010, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

I understood that the tax is 30% if you include FICA, but either way it is much more than the 8% you mentioned.

Abolishing the IRS is a pipe dream. Collecting a sales tax will require an agency, and there will be all kinds of cheats no one has yet imagined. The proposal in the "fair" tax plan to exempt "business to business" is a whole you could fly a 747 through, unless you reinstate an intrusive enforcement agency.

---------- Post added 04-23-2010 at 10:03 AM ----------

With internet sales, only a national sales tax has any possiblity of working in the long term.

As discussed above, whatever tax is enacted will generate cheats and legal avoidance.

I can't recall saying anything about 8%. Show me.

Figure in all the taxes and "fees" you pay now. Bet it's a ton more than you think it is. And if you smoke? Look at how bad the taxes are on a pack of cigs.

deadwolfbones · 04-23-2010, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

I can't recall saying anything about 8%. Show me.

Figure in all the taxes and "fees" you pay now. Bet it's a ton more than you think it is. And if you smoke? Look at how bad the taxes are on a pack of cigs.

Gettin' lazy, eh, George?

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Could just tax everything at the final point of purchase. No exceptions. No loopholes. Fair to everyone. Government gets a huge increase in revenue. Consumers would have a flat tax on everything of 8%. No income tax whatsoever. Yet government would be flush with cash. Of course that will never happen. First the IRS could be abolished and Geithner and Rangel would never go for that. I mean who would they cheat out of money? (Rhetorical)

GeneV · 04-23-2010, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

Gettin' lazy, eh, George?

I'd take 8% in a heartbeat. The trouble is that by the time the state and local taxes and FICA were added in, the tax would end up closer to 40%.

For a family around the median income that has to spend everything that comes in, the federal portion would be a big increase.

pxpaulx · 04-23-2010, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by graphicgr8s

Could just tax everything at the final point of purchase. No exceptions. No loopholes. Fair to everyone. Government gets a huge increase in revenue. Consumers would have a flat tax on everything of 8%. No income tax whatsoever. Yet government would be flush with cash. Of course that will never happen. First the IRS could be abolished and Geithner and Rangel would never go for that. I mean who would they cheat out of money? (Rhetorical)

I believe they would not be flush with cash. This country already has a huge underground cash economy. If you were to impose a flat national tax, that is the only economy that would boom.

gokenin · 04-23-2010, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by pxpaulx

I believe they would not be flush with cash. This country already has a huge underground cash economy. If you were to impose a flat national tax, that is the only economy that would boom.

Where is this huge underground economy and is it really cheap stuff because I haven't been able to find one yet? A national sales tax would be the most feasible think if you ask me and as far as the internet is concerned unless it is a srictly only creation it has to collect taxes wherever the final destination is for the sale. I also think that the govermnent would put them in the new law so that even internet sales would not be exempt from purchases.

GeneV · 04-23-2010, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by gokenin

Where is this huge underground economy and is it really cheap stuff because I haven't been able to find one yet? A national sales tax would be the most feasible think if you ask me and as far as the internet is concerned unless it is a srictly only creation it has to collect taxes wherever the final destination is for the sale. I also think that the govermnent would put them in the new law so that even internet sales would not be exempt from purchases.

Whether the underground market is huge now or not, it would be very quickly with a huge sales tax like the one being proposed. Apart from the regressive nature of the tax, putting all the tax dollars into one kind of tax means that one avoidance scheme can cut revenues very quickly.

pxpaulx · 04-23-2010, 12:16 PM

Any cash-intensive business - construction, restaurants/bars/food service, convenience stores and small markets to name a few - basically any cash intensive service business that is not commercially operated. Overnight any of the above would all but out-right advertise two prices for the same thing - the cash price, or the credit/check price. Numbers can be fudged on the back end easily enough. I work for a financial institution in their anti-money laundering dept and already see it everyday, in spades. But, what you don't know can't hurt you right?

GeneV · 04-23-2010, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by pxpaulx

Any cash-intensive business - construction, restaurants/bars/food service, convenience stores and small markets to name a few - basically any cash intensive service business that is not commercially operated. Overnight any of the above would all but out-right advertise two prices for the same thing - the cash price, or the credit/check price. Numbers can be fudged on the back end easily enough. I work for a financial institution in their anti-money laundering dept and already see it everyday, in spades. But, what you don't know can't hurt you right?

Restaurants are notorious for this. In addition, why would a restaurant owner ever buy food for home? With no income tax, and business to business transactions exempted, you would see restaurant employees all eating free as part of their compensation. In fact, you would probably see employers paying their employees less and giving them all kinds of stuff "in kind." Anyone who thinks this system will generate less fraud hasn't really thought it through.

Bramela · 04-23-2010, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by gokenin

its at 11 or 12 % but is that what it started at and if it did how long has that price been constant ? I again wonder if a flat 4 or 5% sales taxes across the board as a national sales tax would have been just as effective in raising revenue? Do you find yourself looking to buy stuff outside of Australia to try and get around the VAT tax? I know here in Massachusettes people go to New Hampshire simply to avoid a 5% sales tax if they can.

If my memory serves me correctly, when first introduced it was 10% and has only risen once.
I would not swear to that, but it would be very close. Sufficient to say it has varied very little since introduction here.
After these years, it seems to have grown on people, and there is very little ever said about it.
I know it definitely improves the Governments economic situation very positively.
I was very much against it at the outset, but now, I find no problem with it all.

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04-23-2010, 05:01 AM	#31
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	Originally posted by Bramela 23%++??? Wow, that is a slug. In Australia it is 11 or 12% Max. ---------- Post added 04-23-2010 at 05:00 PM ---------- 23%++??? Wow, that is a slug. In Australia it is 11 or 12% Max. And certain products and services are exempt! its at 11 or 12 % but is that what it started at and if it did how long has that price been constant ? I again wonder if a flat 4 or 5% sales taxes across the board as a national sales tax would have been just as effective in raising revenue? Do you find yourself looking to buy stuff outside of Australia to try and get around the VAT tax? I know here in Massachusettes people go to New Hampshire simply to avoid a 5% sales tax if they can.

04-23-2010, 06:02 AM	#32
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by Bramela 23%++??? Wow, that is a slug. In Australia it is 11 or 12% Max. And certain products and services are exempt! Bruce certain items would also be exempted here also. The poor would actually wind up with the tax rebated. Again, you would have full control of your tax burden on the discretionary items. So you could actually pay less.

04-23-2010, 07:42 AM	#33
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	Originally posted by graphicgr8s Bruce certain items would also be exempted here also. The poor would actually wind up with the tax rebated. Again, you would have full control of your tax burden on the discretionary items. So you could actually pay less. So what you are saying George, is that you would support a massive tax increase....if it came from the right? Were you sitting in the Lap of a Fat Cat when he told you to say that? Was he tightening your little collar as he told you what to type? Break loose George....they have you in a death lock and are squeezing the life out of you and the other little puppies that think you need Fat Cats for survival in the big ugly world of Socialists. Maybe they will not only drop coverage for those with breast cancer, maybe they will tax it? A tax on getting sick....sounds like something your "Conservatives" would come up with. Of course, those in the upper 5% would be exempt.......that include you George? Regards!

04-23-2010, 09:01 AM	#34
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by graphicgr8s The tax would be 23%. Do you think that after income tax SS. Medicare and other taxes masquerading as "fees" you pay less? Remember, you get 100% of your paycheck. You only pay the tax if you buy a new item. The tax is not collected on used stuff. Everyone pays the tax. Tourists, illegals, whoever, it doesn't matter. There are no loopholes. You control your tax outlay. Best yet it abolishes the Infernal Refart Service I understood that the tax is 30% if you include FICA, but either way it is much more than the 8% you mentioned. Abolishing the IRS is a pipe dream. Collecting a sales tax will require an agency, and there will be all kinds of cheats no one has yet imagined. The proposal in the "fair" tax plan to exempt "business to business" is a whole you could fly a 747 through, unless you reinstate an intrusive enforcement agency. ---------- Post added 04-23-2010 at 10:03 AM ---------- Originally posted by gokenin its at 11 or 12 % but is that what it started at and if it did how long has that price been constant ? I again wonder if a flat 4 or 5% sales taxes across the board as a national sales tax would have been just as effective in raising revenue? Do you find yourself looking to buy stuff outside of Australia to try and get around the VAT tax? I know here in Massachusettes people go to New Hampshire simply to avoid a 5% sales tax if they can. With internet sales, only a national sales tax has any possiblity of working in the long term. As discussed above, whatever tax is enacted will generate cheats and legal avoidance.

04-23-2010, 09:23 AM	#35
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by GeneV The proposal in the "fair" tax plan to exempt "business to business" is a whole you could fly a 747 through, unless you reinstate an intrusive enforcement agency. I have the feeling we would see an ENORMOUS jump in the number of LLCs and S-Corps.

04-23-2010, 09:39 AM	#36
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Parallax I have the feeling we would see an ENORMOUS jump in the number of LLCs and S-Corps. I would be busy, and my Pentax collection would expand.

04-23-2010, 10:23 AM	#37
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by GeneV I understood that the tax is 30% if you include FICA, but either way it is much more than the 8% you mentioned. Abolishing the IRS is a pipe dream. Collecting a sales tax will require an agency, and there will be all kinds of cheats no one has yet imagined. The proposal in the "fair" tax plan to exempt "business to business" is a whole you could fly a 747 through, unless you reinstate an intrusive enforcement agency. ---------- Post added 04-23-2010 at 10:03 AM ---------- With internet sales, only a national sales tax has any possiblity of working in the long term. As discussed above, whatever tax is enacted will generate cheats and legal avoidance. I can't recall saying anything about 8%. Show me. Figure in all the taxes and "fees" you pay now. Bet it's a ton more than you think it is. And if you smoke? Look at how bad the taxes are on a pack of cigs.

04-23-2010, 10:44 AM	#38
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	Originally posted by graphicgr8s I can't recall saying anything about 8%. Show me. Figure in all the taxes and "fees" you pay now. Bet it's a ton more than you think it is. And if you smoke? Look at how bad the taxes are on a pack of cigs. Gettin' lazy, eh, George? Originally posted by graphicgr8s Could just tax everything at the final point of purchase. No exceptions. No loopholes. Fair to everyone. Government gets a huge increase in revenue. Consumers would have a flat tax on everything of 8%. No income tax whatsoever. Yet government would be flush with cash. Of course that will never happen. First the IRS could be abolished and Geithner and Rangel would never go for that. I mean who would they cheat out of money? (Rhetorical)

04-23-2010, 10:52 AM	#39
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by deadwolfbones Gettin' lazy, eh, George? I'd take 8% in a heartbeat. The trouble is that by the time the state and local taxes and FICA were added in, the tax would end up closer to 40%. For a family around the median income that has to spend everything that comes in, the federal portion would be a big increase.

04-23-2010, 11:33 AM	#40
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Originally posted by graphicgr8s Could just tax everything at the final point of purchase. No exceptions. No loopholes. Fair to everyone. Government gets a huge increase in revenue. Consumers would have a flat tax on everything of 8%. No income tax whatsoever. Yet government would be flush with cash. Of course that will never happen. First the IRS could be abolished and Geithner and Rangel would never go for that. I mean who would they cheat out of money? (Rhetorical) I believe they would not be flush with cash. This country already has a huge underground cash economy. If you were to impose a flat national tax, that is the only economy that would boom.

04-23-2010, 11:46 AM	#41
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	Originally posted by pxpaulx I believe they would not be flush with cash. This country already has a huge underground cash economy. If you were to impose a flat national tax, that is the only economy that would boom. Where is this huge underground economy and is it really cheap stuff because I haven't been able to find one yet? A national sales tax would be the most feasible think if you ask me and as far as the internet is concerned unless it is a srictly only creation it has to collect taxes wherever the final destination is for the sale. I also think that the govermnent would put them in the new law so that even internet sales would not be exempt from purchases.

04-23-2010, 12:11 PM	#42
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by gokenin Where is this huge underground economy and is it really cheap stuff because I haven't been able to find one yet? A national sales tax would be the most feasible think if you ask me and as far as the internet is concerned unless it is a srictly only creation it has to collect taxes wherever the final destination is for the sale. I also think that the govermnent would put them in the new law so that even internet sales would not be exempt from purchases. Whether the underground market is huge now or not, it would be very quickly with a huge sales tax like the one being proposed. Apart from the regressive nature of the tax, putting all the tax dollars into one kind of tax means that one avoidance scheme can cut revenues very quickly.

04-23-2010, 12:16 PM	#43
pxpaulx Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 2,867	Any cash-intensive business - construction, restaurants/bars/food service, convenience stores and small markets to name a few - basically any cash intensive service business that is not commercially operated. Overnight any of the above would all but out-right advertise two prices for the same thing - the cash price, or the credit/check price. Numbers can be fudged on the back end easily enough. I work for a financial institution in their anti-money laundering dept and already see it everyday, in spades. But, what you don't know can't hurt you right?

04-23-2010, 12:54 PM	#44
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by pxpaulx Any cash-intensive business - construction, restaurants/bars/food service, convenience stores and small markets to name a few - basically any cash intensive service business that is not commercially operated. Overnight any of the above would all but out-right advertise two prices for the same thing - the cash price, or the credit/check price. Numbers can be fudged on the back end easily enough. I work for a financial institution in their anti-money laundering dept and already see it everyday, in spades. But, what you don't know can't hurt you right? Restaurants are notorious for this. In addition, why would a restaurant owner ever buy food for home? With no income tax, and business to business transactions exempted, you would see restaurant employees all eating free as part of their compensation. In fact, you would probably see employers paying their employees less and giving them all kinds of stuff "in kind." Anyone who thinks this system will generate less fraud hasn't really thought it through.

04-23-2010, 01:03 PM	#45
Bramela Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Newcastle Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,284	Originally posted by gokenin its at 11 or 12 % but is that what it started at and if it did how long has that price been constant ? I again wonder if a flat 4 or 5% sales taxes across the board as a national sales tax would have been just as effective in raising revenue? Do you find yourself looking to buy stuff outside of Australia to try and get around the VAT tax? I know here in Massachusettes people go to New Hampshire simply to avoid a 5% sales tax if they can. If my memory serves me correctly, when first introduced it was 10% and has only risen once. I would not swear to that, but it would be very close. Sufficient to say it has varied very little since introduction here. After these years, it seems to have grown on people, and there is very little ever said about it. I know it definitely improves the Governments economic situation very positively. I was very much against it at the outset, but now, I find no problem with it all.