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04-21-2010, 08:54 PM   #1
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Obama suggests value-added tax may be an option

Great. A new tax that screws the middle class people. VAT was invented because very high sales taxes and tariffs encourage cheating and smuggling. Critics point out that it disproportionately raises taxes on middle- and low-income homes. In France, it is the most important source of state finance, accounting for nearly 50% of state revenues. Yes, lets be like the French. Another socialist idea. We do not need this except to pay for the outragous socialist spending in the last year.
A

04-21-2010, 09:05 PM   #2
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you would rather give more money to the war machine? that's where all the money went, that's where all the money continues to go. "Thou shalt not kill each other" WTF?
04-21-2010, 09:52 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Artesian Quote
Great. A new tax that screws the middle class people. VAT was invented because very high sales taxes and tariffs encourage cheating and smuggling. Critics point out that it disproportionately raises taxes on middle- and low-income homes. In France, it is the most important source of state finance, accounting for nearly 50% of state revenues. Yes, lets be like the French. Another socialist idea. We do not need this except to pay for the outragous socialist spending in the last year.
A

How did you think all of Jesus George's giant tax cuts to your Fat Cat handlers was going to be paid for? His phony war in Iraq and his failed war in Afghanistan? His bungling of the entire economy with his unfunded programs that are now having to be paid for by Obama? If we are going socialist, you can thank yourself and your courageous leader Jesus George......Mission Accomplished! Great job Brownie!
And Steve, Socialists worldwide thank you too!
Regards!
04-21-2010, 10:19 PM   #4
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I don't want to buy into your politics in the US, but we in Australia have had such a tax for about 12 years.
At first the attitude was, this is an absolute rort, but once people become used to it it is not such a bad thing.

At least, with such a Tax, every person who spends money from the richest to the poorest is paying some tax. Which is certainly far from the situation that existed before hand.

I dont know about your Tax system, but it certainly made things a lot more equitable here in Australia, as I see it..

And to say it is a "socialist" thing, no way, I would suggest it is the exact opposite, because it is the poorer in the community who stand to lose by having to pay bit more on everything, and are the ones who can least afford to.

On introduction, the whole thing depends on what balancing benefits are granted by the Government.

Our Govt of the time, stuffed this very badly, giving way bigger benefit to the rich and very little to aged pensioners etc..
That is the opposite to socialist, as I see it, and I am no socialist, and certainly no conservative either.

04-22-2010, 03:58 AM   #5
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What's so funny is how some people knee-jerk to anything and everything that may be, perhaps with a stretch, remotely construed as similar to what countries they perceive are kindasorta leaning towards "socialism", as if it were the devil himself.

I mean, like, you're so still living in the 80s, when everything was commie this and commie that

Come join us in the 21st century, guys.
04-22-2010, 04:19 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Artesian Quote
We do not need this except to pay for the outragous socialist spending in the last year.
A
WHY do we conveniently forget the war expenditures and go right to socialism
QuoteQuote:
The share for Iraq is declining and that for Afghanistan is rising as U.S. troops withdraw from
Iraq and grow in Afghanistan. These DOD figures do not include obligations for intelligence or
other expenses that are included in CRS average monthly estimates below but not captured by
DOD’s war reports compiled by the Defense Finance Accounting Service (DFAS).
Based on DOD’s most recent obligations report for July 2009, obligations are currently running
about $10.9 (b)illion a month, or almost 25% less than the $14.3 billion average per month in
FY2008 during the Iraq surge.
This year’s decrease reflects primarily a drop in average
obligations in Iraq and a rise in obligations for Afghanistan. Specifically, average obligations are
running:
• $7.3 billion in FY2009 compared to $11.1 billion in FY2008 in Iraq and;
• $3.6 billion in FY2009 compared to $3.1 billion in FY2008 in Afghanistan
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf
QuoteQuote:
WASHINGTON — The cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could total $2.4 trillion through the next decade, or nearly $8,000 per man, woman and child in the country, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate scheduled for release Wednesday.

A previous CBO estimate put the wars' costs at more than $1.6 trillion. This one adds $705 billion in interest, taking into account that the conflicts are being funded with borrowed money. As of Sept. 30 (2007), the two wars have cost $604 billion, the CBO says. Adjusted for inflation, that is higher than the costs of the Korea and Vietnam conflicts, according to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

Defense spending during those two wars accounted for a far larger share of the American economy.

In the months before the March 2003 Iraq invasion, the Bush administration estimated the Iraq war would cost no more than $50 billion.
War costs may total $2.4 trillion - USATODAY.com


Where were all the fiscal conservatives when we needed them....

---------- Post added 04-22-2010 at 04:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Bramela Quote
I don't want to buy into your politics in the US, but we in Australia have had such a tax for about 12 years.
At first the attitude was, this is an absolute rort, but once people become used to it it is not such a bad thing.

At least, with such a Tax, every person who spends money from the richest to the poorest is paying some tax. Which is certainly far from the situation that existed before hand.

I dont know about your Tax system, but it certainly made things a lot more equitable here in Australia, as I see it..

And to say it is a "socialist" thing, no way, I would suggest it is the exact opposite, because it is the poorer in the community who stand to lose by having to pay bit more on everything, and are the ones who can least afford to.

On introduction, the whole thing depends on what balancing benefits are granted by the Government.

Our Govt of the time, stuffed this very badly, giving way bigger benefit to the rich and very little to aged pensioners etc..
That is the opposite to socialist, as I see it, and I am no socialist, and certainly no conservative either.
Thank for the perspective.....
Just a bit of war reference..........
http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/02/27/can-you-believe-it-no-more-war/
QuoteQuote:
In 2003, then Maj. Gen. David Petraeus, commander of the 101st Airborne Division that had participated in the invasion of Iraq, had a running joke with an embedded reporter, Rick Atkinson. Slyly acknowledging the unclear aims of the inchoate occupation of Iraq, the general would turn to the reporter and muse, "Tell me how this ends." Today at Camp Lejenue, speaking to a large group of Marines who will soon deploy to Afghanistan, President Barack Obama — an antiwar Illinois state senator at the time of the invasion — answered Petraeus.

As a candidate for President, I made clear my support for a timeline of 16 months to carry out this drawdown, while pledging to consult closely with our military commanders upon taking office to ensure that we preserve the gains we’ve made and protect our troops. Those consultations are now complete, and I have chosen a timeline that will remove our combat brigades over the next 18 months.

Let me say this as plainly as I can: by August 31, 2010, our combat mission in Iraq will end.

The combat mission will give way to a training and advisory mission in support of the Iraqi security forces, along with "targeted counter-terrorism missions," but that mission isn’t unconditional. Obama said the U.S. military will support its Iraqi counterparts "as long as they remain non-sectarian"

Last edited by jeffkrol; 04-22-2010 at 06:18 AM.
04-22-2010, 05:14 AM   #7
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Where is the outrage against Obama for not pulling our troops out of these two wars like he promised in his campaigns ? We are 16 months into his Presidency and he contiues to leave the troops there and continues to spend money there but still you blame Bush alone for this spending. Ok enough about the war.

I simply wonder if a VAT tax is so great why is it that almost every buyer of every lens sold in the forums asks that the lens be sold as a gift so that they can avoid having to pay the VAT tax. I am in favor of a flat national sales tax ( I know weird for a Republican I know) don't get me wrong but maybe I am wrong but a VAT can literally be seen as a tax against a product at every step of it production since it is a Value added tax does that mean everytime something is added to anything along the line of its production that a tax is taken on the increased value of said item? If thats the case to me it just seems that the government is having its pie and eating it to. I could be wrong about how it works but thats my understanding of it and you know the end user is going to pay for all that cummulative taxation on the product.
The other thing is that its really a hidden tax since you dont see it as a tax at the time of sale because the taxes are passed on through the actual cost of the item being bought. Once the government has access to this vast way of increasing revenue do you think that it will exercise restraint when it comes to increasing the tax? I once again say ask the people that have it already is it the same percentage now as when the tax was first introduced?
04-22-2010, 05:32 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by gokenin Quote
Where is the outrage against Obama for not pulling our troops out of these two wars like he promised in his campaigns ? We are 16 months into his Presidency and he contiues to leave the troops there and continues to spend money there but still you blame Bush alone for this spending. Ok enough about the war.

I simply wonder if a VAT tax is so great why is it that almost every buyer of every lens sold in the forums asks that the lens be sold as a gift so that they can avoid having to pay the VAT tax. I am in favor of a flat national sales tax ( I know weird for a Republican I know) don't get me wrong but maybe I am wrong but a VAT can literally be seen as a tax against a product at every step of it production since it is a Value added tax does that mean everytime something is added to anything along the line of its production that a tax is taken on the increased value of said item? If thats the case to me it just seems that the government is having its pie and eating it to. I could be wrong about how it works but thats my understanding of it and you know the end user is going to pay for all that cummulative taxation on the product.
The other thing is that its really a hidden tax since you dont see it as a tax at the time of sale because the taxes are passed on through the actual cost of the item being bought. Once the government has access to this vast way of increasing revenue do you think that it will exercise restraint when it comes to increasing the tax? I once again say ask the people that have it already is it the same percentage now as when the tax was first introduced?
A VAT is actually the most fair form of a "flat national sales tax." The VAT takes the sales tax bite in increments, as different levels of sales or production increase the price. The sales tax collects all the tax at once as a percentage of the retail price when the final product is sold. What's more, the sales tax may collect that same amount based on the total price two or three times if the product is resold. It is not necessarily the case that the total tax will be less with a sales tax than a VAT over the life of the product. In addition, as a small businessperson in a state with a flavor of sales tax called "gross receipts tax," I can tell you that figuring what is and is not exempt from sales tax because it will be resold is a nightmare. With the VAT, that is simplified and less subject to fraud, because you only pay tax based upon the incremental increase.

It seems to me that this should be good news in principle to anti-FIC conservatives (and bad news for liberals), and the alarms should wait for the details. There are many flavors of sales tax, and there are many variations on the VAT.

That people do not want to pay a tax is not really that surprising, whether the tax is fair or not.

04-22-2010, 05:46 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by gokenin Quote
Where is the outrage against Obama for not pulling our troops out of these two wars like he promised in his campaigns ? We are 16 months into his Presidency and he contiues to leave the troops there and continues to spend money there but still you blame Bush alone for this spending. Ok enough about the war.
Funny how Republicans are now 'anti-war' after all that time of 'We can't leave, now! Obama would pull out immediately and all at once and leave things a mess!' (That Bush made and spent trillions on the wrong damn war while neglecting acheivable goals in Afghanistan and leaving us with a mess *there,* too.) Now they want to stick the whole bill on Obama cause he was honest about what it was costing all along rather than calling it 'off-budget spending'.

Nonsense.

Getting *out* of a lot of the messes the Republicans made isn't something one can snap one's fingers and have immediate results, which seems to be the premise Republicans have been harping on since day two of this administration.

Now you speculate about a maybe-mentioned tax you haven't sourced and claim it's cause of social programs, when in fact after Obama came in, your taxes are the lowest they've been in sixty years?

QuoteQuote:
I am in favor of a flat national sales tax ( I know weird for a Republican I know)
Not really. Republicans are the ones who claim a 'flat tax' is a 'sales tax,' ...but it's really regressive, actually. People who have the least end up paying the most. Down here the sales tax is eight percent: they even tax food, and pretend because it's not an income tax, that that's somehow 'populist.'

Smoke and mirrors.

And more spinning fears about something that 'might' happen which you don't seem to understand in the first place, but want to call 'socialist' anyway.
04-22-2010, 06:30 AM   #10
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What a lot of Republicans are going for is a fair tax

http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf
04-22-2010, 06:55 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
What a lot of Republicans are going for is a fair tax

http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf
We could spend hours going through that proposal, but "fair" is just branding.

The "fair tax" loophole that may be applicable to the discussion here is "no tax on business to business transactions." So, I want a big Pentax collection, and I want to pay no tax on it. I can form a business corporation and buy it. I can do that now, but because of the nature of income tax filings, I have to do a lot more to support that the business is legitimate. To get an income tax deduction, my business has to earn a profit within a certain period of time and have the expense go against profits.

For a VAT, each increase in price/value is taxed along the way whether it ultimately ends up as a consumer or business item.
04-22-2010, 07:15 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
We could spend hours going through that proposal, but "fair" is just branding.

The "fair tax" loophole that may be applicable to the discussion here is "no tax on business to business transactions." So, I want a big Pentax collection, and I want to pay no tax on it. I can form a business corporation and buy it. I can do that now, but because of the nature of income tax filings, I have to do a lot more to support that the business is legitimate. To get an income tax deduction, my business has to earn a profit within a certain period of time and have the expense go against profits.

For a VAT, each increase in price/value is taxed along the way whether it ultimately ends up as a consumer or business item.
Could just tax everything at the final point of purchase. No exceptions. No loopholes. Fair to everyone. Government gets a huge increase in revenue. Consumers would have a flat tax on everything of 8%. No income tax whatsoever. Yet government would be flush with cash. Of course that will never happen. First the IRS could be abolished and Geithner and Rangel would never go for that. I mean who would they cheat out of money? (Rhetorical)
04-22-2010, 07:40 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by graphicgr8s Quote
What a lot of Republicans are going for is a fair tax

http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf

George, I am pretty tough skinned, don't believe in "Ignore", and don't complain no matter how much someone tries to offend me. I have never filed a complaint, here or anywhere else, but.........the next time you use "fair" and Republican in the same sentence I am hitting that complaint button!
Regards!
04-22-2010, 07:47 AM   #14
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For those who complain that the VAT would be applied at every step of the way, adding to the total cost to the end purchaser... what do you think happens today? Each time there are sales taxes, corporate taxes on profits, payroll taxes, and so on, who in the end pays them?
04-22-2010, 07:49 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Funny how Republicans are now 'anti-war' after all that time of 'We can't leave, now! Obama would pull out immediately and all at once and leave things a mess!' (That Bush made and spent trillions on the wrong damn war while neglecting acheivable goals in Afghanistan and leaving us with a mess *there,* too.)There is NO achievable goal in Afghanistan there never has been and there never will be as long as its borders are pourous and the enemy can simply slide out of country then simply return at another time. The same thing happened in that little democratic fiasco in Vietnam but again America didn't learn from its past failure. Now they want to stick the whole bill on Obama cause he was honest about what it was costing all along rather than calling it 'off-budget spending'.His campaign pledge is what I am talking about not the fact that he is being honest about the cost of the war again read the post instead of reading it through your own filter on the world for once.

Nonsense.

Getting *out* of a lot of the messes the Republicans made isn't something one can snap one's fingers and have immediate results, which seems to be the premise Republicans have been harping on since day two of this administration.

Now you speculate about a maybe-mentioned tax you haven't sourced and claim it's cause of social programs, when in fact after Obama came in, your taxes are the lowest they've been in sixty years?
You had better be able to show hard proof of such a bold statement yet you provide no evidence of this and you bash me when I admit that I am not 100% sure of how this tax works but am willing to express my opinion based on the knowledge I do have about it


Not really. Republicans are the ones who claim a 'flat tax' is a 'sales tax,' ...but it's really regressive, actually. People who have the least end up paying the most. Down here the sales tax is eight percent: they even tax food, and pretend because it's not an income tax, that that's somehow 'populist.' Again I am not talking about an Income tax which is what you may be thinking about I am taking about a sales take in addition to your federal income taxes once again you fail to read what I write and make statements contrary to what I am posting

Smoke and mirrors.

And more spinning fears about something that 'might' happen which you don't seem to understand in the first place, but want to call 'socialist' anyway.Show me where did I EVER say that in my post do you even read anything that someone you know as a Republican posts or do you just simply and automatically attack them ?
For the Love of all that is Holy will you stop putting words in my mouth for Pete's sake, you have no idea my personal opinions of the wars yet because I am a Republican you lump all of us in as one monolithic entity. Do you even bother to think that maybe there are Republicans that were and are opposed to the war and before you say it no we couldn't stop it anymore that the average Democrat can be held responsible for the actions of the current administration.

OK enough of this and I do hope that you may just may in the future actually read what is being posted and may actually think about the words actually written. I know that may be a stretch but please try.

---------- Post added 04-22-2010 at 10:52 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
For those who complain that the VAT would be applied at every step of the way, adding to the total cost to the end purchaser... what do you think happens today? Each time there are sales taxes, corporate taxes on profits, payroll taxes, and so on, who in the end pays them?
I dont deny that we all know that the bill gets passed on to the end user it just seems that under this not only are we paying for all these things already added on but now we may have to the federal goverment increase these add ons as well.
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