[northcoastgreg]

Did you really think about this? How many people are "controlled" by their "job" because they don't want to risk (or can't find) losing their insurance.. You couldn't see control if it bit you in the arse...

Do you really think the "control" of employment is the equivalent of to control by the government? There are 1000s of employers offering jobs; and while switching jobs may be, for some people, troublesome and stressful, it tends not to be nearly as difficult as switching governments. Businesses and corporations compete for employees on the open market. Anyone with marketable skills can, with a bit of effort, find another job if he doesn't like how his current employer is "controlling" him. But if his government controls him, what recourse does he have beyond moving to another country?

The healthcare reform is reform in name only. It's really just a corrupt bargain between power-hungry political elites and crony capitalists within the medical-corporate-industrial complex. No real health care reform on a national level is possible given the corruption that prevails in Washington and the crony capitalism that exists in our medical industry.

[deadwolfbones]

deadwolfbones:

So your avoidance of the issue answers the question. Brilliant, try not to be so transparent.

So, you have a view of single payer health care based on no experience but some handy dandy promises made by, admittedly, a smooth talking politician. I, on the other hand, have lived, (for more than twenty years each), in both systems. I can assure you that, when you need it, the US system is better - far better. Now, you can splutter and pontificate all you like but you know you will be talking from nothing more than your imagination.

A couple examples that might help "clue you in":-

1. In my father's town of 30,000 people there is no ambulance or hospital. The hospital is ten miles north of his house and the ambulance is based ten miles south. (People don't work in government because they are smart).

2. The Canadian system is consistently "dissed" by the very politicians that support the single payer system by them coming to the USA when they need complicated health care quickly.

The first, you'll have to take as read but I have no reason to lie - If I wanted socialized health care I'd have stayed at home. In 2 you can Google this stuff easily, (I won't do it for you because I'm getting fed up of working so that others can benefit from my sweat without lifting a finger to help themselves).

It is, frankly, ridiculous for those that have never experienced "nationalized/single payer" health care to argue with those that have. But I know, you will anyway - because experience doesn't count...

That's all great, and I respect the fact that you've experienced both systems. Could you please highlight some instances in which you personally (or even someone you personally know) needed care in Canada and failed to get it?

Regardless, people like myself (who indeed haven't experienced both systems) generally rely on reports from those who have, along with statistics, to formulate our opinions. This is why I value yours. However, I can say without any hesitation that the vast majority of reports that I have read and heard in person from those who have experienced both systems (in Canada, Sweden, the UK, etc) come out in favor of socialized healthcare, by a wide margin. The stats also favor it, as seen in smc's post. Rational thinking tends to favor it as well.

[GingeM]

Jeff:

Let me ask you this.. what would you add to "fix" the broken part or do you let people die because to you that's.. errr fair???
Guess if you and your family were in the World Trade Center when it went down I should just say "bad luck old chap"......"wrong place, wrong time...
Only here we are talking about a disease, not even man made.....

It's not my business to determine "what the fix is". I'm not that smart. But it is possible for me to look at a proposed solution and say "That's rubbish". I have thoughts about what might work but I am not privy to the intricacies of making it so. Nationalizing the entire system and handing it over to the government who have serially f'ed up everything they have ever touched is not the answer.

What on earth does the WTC have to do with this conversation????

No, we aren't just talking about disease. We are talking about injury, cancers caused by the use of such product as asbestos, etc., etc., etc.

You're out of your league here mate... Way out of your league. Stick to photography, I'm quite sure your much better at it - and quite sure your much better at it than I am...

[jeffkrol]

Because we need a war on health not just terror.. that seems to be the only way to stimulate your wallet

[Ratmagiclady]

Do you really think the "control" of employment is the equivalent of to control by the government?

No, employer's control is more immediate. That's why there used to be this thing called a *union.*

[SteveM]

1. In my father's town of 30,000 people there is no ambulance or hospital. The hospital is ten miles north of his house and the ambulance is based ten miles south. (People don't work in government because they are smart).

The government in BC took over the Ambulance service in the 70s when the private companies wouldn't service some areas of a city of over 1 million because it wasn't as profitable as some other areas. I can't speak for your government but I can speak for the Ambulance service we have now. It was one of the first in North America to offer Paramedic services. This province is over 3 times the size of California and is covered by a fleet of jets, helicopters and turbo props. All provided at a fraction of the taxpayer funds that US citizens pay. It's too bad the US government is inept.

2. The Canadian system is consistently "dissed" by the very politicians that support the single payer system by them coming to the USA when they need complicated health care quickly.

I never said it was a perfect system, just much better than the system in the US. There is nothing stopping someone with loads of money going to the US, France or wherever for a procedure. If you are a millionaire, you can probably pick whatever care you want. I don't know how many folks in the US and Canada that can drop a few hundred thousand on a hospital bill without worrying about it. Also, the Canadian population is 1/10th the size of the US, so it makes sense to send overflow to the US. Why staff something that sits idle for a portion of the time.

Regarding complaints - the only way the system works is if it is regulated based on "need" from a doctors opinion (instead of an insurance companies opinion). It would go broke if you had every hypochondriac getting everything that they demanded/ If you need surgery but it is non-life threatening, you might have to wait your turn to make sure the more dire cases get dealt with first. The Canadian that the US Republicans paraded around as she was on a wait list in Canada.....you know the one that has brain cancer? Well she actually doesn't have brain cancer. The news media here in Canada used this story to outline how easy it is to lie to the American people and have them believe it out of sheer ideology.

Here (at least in BC) you pay the government for insurance. It doesn't cost much, and no one is forcing you to buy it. If you don't want insurance, you can pay for the care yourself (although it would be expensive). I think the new plan the US is outlining is a dead end. If they just dismantled the insurance companies they could provide better care and lower taxes at the same time.

[Ratmagiclady]

Scrolled off or not, I'd still like to direct the ever-erudite Gokenin's attention to my post of what's showing 6:53 my time. Before this goes to the usual.

[GingeM]

I never said it was a perfect system, just much better than the system in the US.

Based on what?

When those that wield the most power in a country chose to avail themselves of another country's system that, surely, demonstrates their own system is inferior... They can order, bully, coerce, whatever they like out of the system yet they chose to buy a ticket to another country's system. Damning doesn't even begin to describe it.

The problem is many of you can't see your "ruling class" for their "pretty speeches"...

[jeffkrol]

The image of a death spiral is a useful metaphor for thinking about the role of access to health care within the larger context of American social and economic life. Because employment and health insurance are tightly linked, job disruptions such as layoffs or firings, starting one's own business, or taking time off to care for small children or elderly parents can lead to the loss of health coverage. That loss can easily lead to health concerns going untreated, a situation that can exacerbate employment problems by making the individual less able to work. Alternatively, the downward spiral can begin with health problems that lead to employment problems, making it less likely that one will have health insurance and thus reducing the chances of solving the original health issues.

Whatever the starting point, once a person enters the death spiral, it is difficult to escape. Because employment adversity is so thoroughly intertwined with medical adversity, those caught in the spiral cannot amass either the bodily or the financial resources needed to break out. Descent through the death spiral, for millions of Americans, leaves irrevocable marks of illness on their bodies and souls.
In a broader sense, the death spiral serves as a metaphor for the deep changes taking place in American society as the demarcation between rich and poorÑa traditionally fluid distinction in our societyÑhardens into a static barrier between the caste of the healthy and the caste of those who are fated to become and remain sick.

Portals into the Death Spiral

Individuals are pulled into the death spiral through many different portals. Corporate restructuring, outsourcing, divorce, family crises, chronic illness, serious accidents, and racial discrimination open some of the most recognizable doors. Indeed, given the number and diversity of entrances, all Americans, except for a small number of extremely rich individuals, are vulnerable to the death spiral's pull.

The majority of people we met in our travels across the country lack consistent access to health care of reasonable quality despite having been employed all or most of their adult lives. Approximately one-third of the people with whom we spoke are well educated but have had the misfortune to end up in jobs that do not offer insurance: substitute teachers, adjunct professors, part-time social workers. These Americans have not chosen to be uninsured; rather, their employersÑlike Loretta'sÑhave found it cost-effective to reduce the number of permanent full-time positions while maintaining an unprotected pool of workers whose jobs by definition do not offer benefits.

Contingent workers now represent more than 25 percent of the American workforce. Some industries, such as the food industry, employ temporary, part-time, transient workers almost exclusively. Other industries retain some full-time employees but outsource certain jobs that were formerly performed in house. In the Rust Belt, manufacturing plants employ increasing numbers of temporary workers through temp companies such as Manpower. These job slots have replaced the full-time, unionized jobs of previous years, allowing employers to cut costs by not providing benefits. Those beginning their working lives are particularly hard-hit by the scarcity of jobs with good benefits: one in three young adults between the ages of eighteen and twenty-four in the United States lacks health care coverage..............And if we condone a health care system that contributes to the formation of an untouchable caste of the ill, infirm, and marginally employed, all of us, as a society, will lose the right to feel pride in the democratic values that we claim to cherish.

For these reasons, we have come to believe that the most efficient and effective way to break the power that the death spiral holds for so many Americans is to make the provision of basic, comprehensive health care a public rather than a private responsibility.

Uninsured in America: CHAPTER ONE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Starr_Sered
http://transformationsymposium.wordpress.com/2007/11/13/rushika-fernandopull...n-and-passion/
you are the one.. err... out of your league.....

[Mallee Boy]

1. In my father's town of 30,000 people there is no ambulance or hospital. The hospital is ten miles north of his house and the ambulance is based ten miles south. (People don't work in government because they are smart).

I must admit to not quite getting your point here. If it is "as read" and not cryptic then what is the problem with your fathers situation? A lot of people in urban situations would not live in this proximity....not to mention rural.

If I'm missing the bleedin' obvious then I apologise in advance.

Regards,
Grant ( & one who lives in a Health Care regime where we have the choice of Public or Private (if we choose to insure) ).

[Rupert]

Jeff:
It's not my business to determine "what the fix is". I'm not that smart. But it is possible for me to look at a proposed solution and say "That's rubbish". I have thoughts about what might work but I am not privy to the intricacies of making it so. Nationalizing the entire system and handing it over to the government who have serially f'ed up everything they have ever touched is not the answer.

What on earth does the WTC have to do with this conversation????

No, we aren't just talking about disease. We are talking about injury, cancers caused by the use of such product as asbestos, etc., etc., etc.

You're out of your league here mate... Way out of your league. Stick to photography, I'm quite sure your much better at it - and quite sure your much better at it than I am...

Nice to see you here Mr Ginge.....another right wing hater that cares absolutely nothing about his fellow man, just his own pocketbook and his own well being. I've seen many like you, big tough and "I got mine, you get yours" philosophy of the right, as dictated to you by the Fat Cats that control your every thought. Without FAUX News, and your Spinning Jockies like Rush and Savage, you guys would be lost for words.......thinking for yourself is not your strong point, is it?
When disease and tragedy come knocking on your door, and they surely will....no one escapes, you will just be another right wing Turtle that falls off the top of his fence post and into the world of reality. You won't be preaching your high and mighty sermons then, you will be whimpering like the self centered brat I suspect you really are.
"You're out of your league here mate... Way out of your league."
You are the one out of your league Mr Ginge.......your lack of concern for your fellow man puts you in a league the majority of humans do not admire.
Beast Regards

[Artesian]

Nice to see you here Mr Ginge.....another right wing hater that cares absolutely nothing about his fellow man, just his own pocketbook and his own well being. I've seen many like you, big tough and "I got mine, you get yours" philosophy of the right, as dictated to you by the Fat Cats that control your every thought. Without FAUX News, and your Spinning Jockies like Rush and Savage, you guys would be lost for words.......thinking for yourself is not your strong point, is it?
When disease and tragedy come knocking on your door, and they surely will....no one escapes, you will just be another right wing Turtle that falls off the top of his fence post and into the world of reality. You won't be preaching your high and mighty sermons then, you will be whimpering like the self centered brat I suspect you really are.
"You're out of your league here mate... Way out of your league."
You are the one out of your league Mr Ginge.......your lack of concern for your fellow man puts you in a league the majority of humans do not admire.
Beast Regards

Bla bla bla. Sameol sameol BS. "another right wing hater that cares absolutely nothing about his fellow man, just his own pocketbook and his own well being, Fat Cats, Faux news, Rush and Savage, Turtle on a fence post" Bla Bla Bla. You need to come up with something new here.

[Rupert]

Bla bla bla. Sameol sameol BS. "another right wing hater that cares absolutely nothing about his fellow man, just his own pocketbook and his own well being, Fat Cats, Faux news, Rush and Savage, Turtle on a fence post" Bla Bla Bla. You need to come up with something new here.

So you are a big supporter of your fellow man? What a shock!......you were just telling us in another thread that you love those capitalist goals of selling tainted goods that kill, if the profit is right, of course, and how weeding out people that might get sick, or heaven forbid, develop breast cancer is a noble goal in the pursuit of huge profits. I guess you just have a "different way" of caring,....right? And....when your turn comes around, and it will for you just like it will for everyone, you can count on your capitalist Fat Cats to be there for you....right again?

There are two types of people here...those that care for themselves, their loved ones and friends, and fellow man in general....and those that don't. You can bet your hiney I won't need any computer generated program to determine which group you are in.
Beast Regards!

[SteveM]

Based on what?

When those that wield the most power in a country chose to avail themselves of another country's system that, surely, demonstrates their own system is inferior... They can order, bully, coerce, whatever they like out of the system yet they chose to buy a ticket to another country's system. Damning doesn't even begin to describe it.

The problem is many of you can't see your "ruling class" for their "pretty speeches"...

Your "most powerful" are also not obliged to use your new health care, nor were they before the new plan. I'm sure their plan doesn't cut off insurance for a 4 month old like my plan did on my son when I lived in the US. We are talking about health care for middle income earners, those earning 40 to 120 K a year. At least our system provides world class care instead of being rewarded for denying it. Not that it got to this stage for me, but if someone walks up to you and gives you a choice of giving up your son or your home, which do you think you would do? "Pathetic" pretty much sums it up for US health care.

Thanks for the condescension.

The system is fundamentally flawed and needs to be reworked from the ground up. Unfortunately, the scaremongering machine on the right didn't allow the revision to go as far as it should have (single payer, like the rest of the civilized world), and we ended up with a halfassed, compromised plan. Still, it's better than what we had.

Anyway, the OP was not about the administration's new plan. It was about commonplace abuses under the current one. Let's try to stay on topic.

Actually it's not "fundamentally flawed". It needed tweaking to make it the best in the world. However tweaking and perfecting the current system would not allow governmental control.

If the "health care" they voted in was so great they wouldn't have needed all the buyouts. Nor all the exemptions.