[seacapt]

Recently school dress codes in several states and counties have come under attack by the ACLU as being in violation of high scool student's costitutional rights.
In the county which I currently reside there are basic school dress codes in place. I and the vast majority of parents I've spoken to wholeheartedly endorse these dress codes. They are very simple and are in place for the good of the student body as a whole.
Some of the items prohibitted are as follows; "Colors" or any gang related clothing , symbols or parephenelia. Clothing with writing or symbols that include or can be considered to imply racially or ethnicly defamitory content.
Clothing which may be considered sexually provocative or which does not cover undergarments. Here's my favorite, Clothing which may be considered by the school faculty or staff to interfere with or in any way disrupt the learning process .
What do you think, Should scools have dress codes?
Are children to be given all of the constitutional rights of an adult?

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Last edited by seacapt; 04-30-2010 at 03:33 PM. Reason: punctuation

Sure dress codes are good. When these kids get out in the real world eventually there will more than likely be at least a minimum standard of dress. The school dress code should also eliminate the one upmanship on brand name stuff anyway.

[reeftool]

There are dress codes in the work place. When I went to school (in the 50-60's) there were dress codes. I admit that we pushed the limits at times but school is supposed to be a place of learning. One of the things every student needs to learn is that there is a time and place for everything. Some don't think that is true and they dress and behave as they please and then complain that there are no jobs.

[Parallax]

Several years ago I had a young man, early 20s or very late teens, come in and apply for a job. Multi colored hair, torn cloths, pierced everything. Very polite and well spoken. I told him I didn't need any help (Yeah, yeah, I know, but I'm talking about labor here. ) and just before he went out the door I called him back and told him that even if I had need him and he were qualified that I wouldn't hire him because of his appearance. What surprised me was that he actually thanked me for my honesty.

[Ratmagiclady]

What do you think Should schools have dress codes?

You may be surprised at this, but maybe. The problem *is* Constitutionality, in many ways. I'll get to that.

Are children to be given all of the constitutional rights of an adult?

Yes and no. The Constitution provides some ways in which children may be restricted from the full exercise of those rights, but they should be seen to exist. The reason we have public schools is in large measure to prepare young people for citizenship. Too often it becomes a battleground for groups of adults to impose 'values' of various other kinds on other people's kids, usually proceeding from 'Biblical' notions that children are *property* until they reach adulthood, which adulthood modern society actually pushes back until one's sixteen/eighteen/twenty-one in increments.

This is actually a good thing in a lot of ways, this 'extended childhood,' especially in terms of preparing people for a complex world, *but* how it's gone about is often more than a little out of joint with the purpose of preparing citizens.

How adults will view how kids dress and how the kids do is very different. And we forget this, even though we should all know better.

How kids dress is a very big means to expression and thus to how they get along with each other and learn to negotiate the world.

It's a social battleground, and, too often, really, what kids bring from home: people focus on what's 'most provocative,' but that mostly has to do with how much leeway (and money) a kid can extract out of the family situation. 'Your mamma dresses you funny,' remember? That goes for whether they're pressured to wear some political/religious T-shirt or forbidden to.

It seems we look at this whole thing as really 'Older folks' desires for control, (often over each other, *using* kids) ' vs 'Kids growing into self-responsibility and expression.'

But school's an artificial situation to begin with.

I think what there needs to be are *standards,* ...Not a code, not a uniform, per se, and not just 'The free market.'

Just boundaries. A good boundary might be, 'No words or letters or pictures.'

'Symbols' will happen no matter how subtle they may be. (Even in prison uniforms, right?) Leave those. Let the kids work those out.

'Uniforms' might not be the worst idea ever, actually. With a big caveat. No restrictions on *how* the kids wear them, though. If you're rich, have a nicely-made one. If you're not, whatever. This is not an excuse for regimentation: just everyone can have anything from the same store. Gals want trousers, they can have those. Boys want kilts, they can have those. Want to wear your blouse untucked, wear the little tie around your ankle? Go nuts. Headscarf for Muslim girls? Great, but it can also be a sash. Turban for Sikh boys? also great. But if someone wants to mummify themselves with one, they can do that, too. Boys want to wear the school tie totally undone? Fine.

Let it play out, not turn it into some kind of thing where teachers can comment constantly on someone's person, crushing individuality like that over ever-tightening details.

Looser still, just standards, ...not just a list of prohibitions meant to make all the political/religious types happy. A lot of private school dress codes can do similarly. (Stupidity about it from the staff was one thing we all had in common, to varying degrees, actually. )

Christians can wear a cross, Jews can wear a Star of David, Pagans can wear a pent or whatever, Flying Spaghetti Monster devotees can wear hupcap-sized gangsta-style-bling about it, maybe. OK. Maybe say, 'Everyone can wear one religious symbol.'

Just no words. And, maybe no brand names or logos, either.

That's where I think a solution is. Too often what happens with these issues is that the *issue* becomes about control/socialness/freedom all in conflict.

But that's what our public schools are supposed to be *teaching* us about. Neither sheltering us as youngsters, nor throwing us to the consumerist wolves, so to speak.

Whatever the sort of solution, it should start from *being* a solution, not a reaction. Nor an abridgment of unalienable rights.

It's a school *system.* So, what kind of system. Let's make something. From function up. Not the other way around.

Let's make it about 'neutrality.' No one said 'neutrality' had to be *stifling.* Quite often when we try and pick and choose, we use words like 'disruptive to the educational process' ...which is often code for 'Adults aren't used to this particular thing or 'message.'' As a Pagan American, I hear it *all* the time where people are struggling to say, 'How can we have 'religious freedom' (for us) in schools, (ie, captive audience) ...without letting the 'Wiccans' do the same? Can't have *that...*'

You hear it all the time. That's not about 'freedom,' is it? Let's try and make the schools a safe place. Not a battleground.

[wildman]

"What do you think Should scools have dress codes?"

I don't think they should or shouldn't.
But if they feel a need for them reasonable rules seem OK to me. After all a school is a public space and should conform to minimal public standards consistent with constitutional rights.

"Are children to be given all of the constitutional rights of an adult?"

No.
To me the definition of a child is precisely someone who does not have full constitutional rights because they don't have full adult responsibilities.

[Ira]

Dress codes, yes, if not too stringent.

Uniforms, I hate.

[B Grace]

The false assumption here is that children and their parents are granted constitutional rights while on public school premises. Reasonable rights can be assumed when a person is walking on a sidewalk in front of a school building but once on school property it's no longer a truly public venue.

I think many of us Americans misunderstand the specifics of public spaces vs. publicly owned spaces vs. private property.

[DeliaRana]

I think schools should have dress codes. Children need to learn that they should dress appropriately for the surroundings. What they wear out with their friends is not what they would wear for a job interview.

I don't believe public schools should have madatory school uniforms. Most uniform policies I have seen are polo shirts, khaki pants or skirts, and the colors are usually blue, red or white. I'm sorry but I don't think my daughter should be forced to attend school looking the boy sitting next to her, unless it is her choice.

Children should be given the freedom to express themselves with their clothing and appearance. I also believe kids need boundaries to protect themselves. A dress code should be in place to set those boundaries.

Yes, I have 2 kids and they know that I have veto power over everything. They both know that if I don't think their clothes are appropriate for the occasion they can't wear them. There has only been a couple of occasions that I have said no to an outfit. They chose something that was more appropriate for the occasion.

[GeneV]

Here is another instance of a school district and the ACLU losing its way. Whether it is kids or the parents who have the right, the right is a right to speech. Not every article of clothing is speech. The case that started this line of challenges back in 1969 involved a protest against the Vietnam war--classic political speech. The current dispute, as I understand it, has to do with shirts worn in an effort to raise money for a headstone for a student who was shot. That sounds like possibly protected speech, unless it provokes a gang response.

Schools have to be able to impose some dress restrictions, be it gang colors or provocative dress. A while back I saw a woman in court because their landlord was evicting her. It seems that young boys were crawling in and out of their windows to visit her 15 year old daughter at all hours, prompting the neighbors to call the police as unknown teenagers scampered across their back yards. The 15 year old came to court with her mother in pants so low that her behind was hanging out and her thong was showing (as was the style). This clothing did not help her case in court, and I can't help but believe it would not help her or the boys around her to learn in school. Is showing posterior cleavage speech?

[seacapt]

Oh my what a one liner that post left the door open to.

[Ratmagiclady]

Oh my what a one liner that post left the door open to.

Oh, no! It's not a soundbite! People began *discussing* things! What next?!

[Parallax]

Oh, no! It's not a soundbite! People began *discussing* things! What next?!

.............. Is showing posterior cleavage speech?

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, Ken) that its the part of gene's post quoted here that Seacapt was referring to as an opening for a one liner.
Maybe something about talking out of a part of the anatomy that doesn't have teeth?

[GingeM]

Uniforms, I hate.

An interesting turn of phrase. I thought those of you with a "left bent" abhor that particular emotion and castigate those who disagree with them as "haters" as if that is some universal failure in the individual.

One hesitates to ask if it is the uniform itself you hate or the person inside and what they represent.

I know... It's a "turn of phrase"... Until someone like me uses the word...

[Ratmagiclady]

Quick! Apply false equivalencies!