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08-10-2013, 05:05 AM - 1 Like   #16
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With FF you go down to 3500 lpm while with aps-c down to 2500 lpm only, thats what I mean greater analysis.
With aps-c you have acceptable results until 800 iso, with FF you got less noise, you got acceptable results at 2500 iso, that's 1.5 stops ahead.
The fact that you can save space on a mirrorless system doesn't mean that you have to spend it on a bulky reducer. Instead they could design larger aperture lenses. The most important is that a reducer degrades quality.


QuoteOriginally posted by joel_tauzin Quote
The smaller the sensor, the more noise. I agree.

Explain what you mean by "FF offers greater analysis" please.

FF does not offer a stop more of light. An f2 lens is an f2 no matter how big or small the sensor is.

I also agree that a focal reducer might be bulky, but if a camera didn't have a mirror, there is a ton of room to play with. I think you could integrate a focal reducer with a mirrorless camera and still have a good looking camera. Of course, the reducer would have to be designed specifically for that camera body or line of bodies in order for it to work out aesthetically, ergonomically, and functionally.

And the degradation of quality I agree with also, but feel that a comfortable compromise can be made between speed/versatility and image quality. I've seen the metabones reviews, and there doesn't seem to be much noticeable degradation of IQ. Anyway, expect that going FF might reduce the quality of the image your lens produces. Not every lens has edge to edge sharpness. Already you can find threads about how sensors will start to outperform the capabilities of todays lenses.

Since I believe you've missed my point in all this:
Because I don't believe we'll get an EVF nearly as good as an ordinary OVF anytime soon, I don't see professionals solely turning to mirrorless. Today, and for the next few years, mirrorless cameras will be enthusiast grade cameras. I think the best idea is to make them as accessible and affordable as possible. The cost alone for a FF sensor would kill that dream. And, especially where Pentax is concerned, less lenses will be available for the new FF format.

I'm only going on and on about a keeping the camera ASP-C sized, because I believe it's an important way to increase the versatility of your lens set. ASP-C effectively (I know this isn't what really happens) zooms your lens 1.6x, but, unlike a teleconverter, it keeps the aperture the same. I think this feature should not be lost but complimented with an excellently crafted telecompressor that will, not only, resurrect the wasted image circle of FF lenses but, also, add a freaking stop of speed to those lenses.

I whole heartedly believe that a photographer should give more care to and spend more money for lenses than cameras. I think lenses are much more important to the overall look of a picture when comparing sensors of a similar size and definition. So, lets just take every one of your lenses and add up the total monetary value of them. Then find the same lenses (if they exist) that are one stop faster and figure out what the price would be to upgrade your whole kit.

I'm sure you get now why I insist that such a focal reducer be made and that APS-C format should not be abandoned just because of all the almost hysterical hype for FF. And I have faith that Pentax can make a speed booster of such quality and precision that it would blow the minds of both enthusiasts and professionals. It would open the door for people who don't have 10 grand to spend on a kit. One could buy an entry level MLC will all the features of a professional DSLR and buy lenses that are far more reasonably priced than what the professionals use. You can buy a 35mm f2.8 and have it become an f2, a 50mm 1.8 would transform into a 1.2, an 85/2 turns into 85/1.4, and so on... You could have a setup with all the capabilities of a pro's but for a fraction of the price.


08-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #17
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If that's the route you wan't to take with mirrorless, I can't argue. We just have different opinions on the matter, is all.
08-15-2013, 03:10 AM - 1 Like   #18
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The K-01 is already good, but for a new mirrorless I guess it would be better if they adjust the body design more for potential video users.

So it's like the K-01 with better grip,
the K-5 II's screen (and if possible, articulating screen? Olympus managed to make one for the EM-5...)
battery grip option/secondary power source dock

not sure about making a new mount. Pentax has 3 mounts to work for already (Q, K, 645) and they are way behind other manufacturers (and their own) making lenses for those mounts
08-15-2013, 03:26 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Traditional Quote
I would add weather sealed.
Really? If you have Pentax add the weather sealling it will have a huge impact on the price. But if you add the weather sealing yourself (rubber band and a plastic baggy) it will cost you roughly $0,0002.

The sealing on mine failed in a slight drizzle, so I'm now even placing plastic baggies on my fancy "weathersealed" Pentax DSLR anyway. Can just as well save the cost and dump WR alltogether if they can't make it work. And come with more interesting features instead.

08-15-2013, 03:58 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by joel_tauzin Quote
With everyone up in arms about the coming of a FF dslr from Pentax, I'm more interested in seeing a new mirrorless camera with APS-C and a really short flange focal distance.

I don't really want to cheat on Pentax, but I've been looking at the sony NEX 7 and an off-brand focal reducer...

So, what I'd really appreciate from a Pentax camera is this:

-mirrorless
-shortest flange focal distance possible (so telecompressors and lens adapters can be added)
-67, K, and Q mount compatible through adapters
-24 megapixel APS-C sensor
-an optional Pentax speed booster, focal reducer, or telecompressor (whatever you want to call it)
-EVF
-audio input
-HD video output while shooting stills or video
-Tilting glare resistant LCD screen
-a vintage looking body
-two SD slots



What do you think?
Have anything to add?
I think this would be fantastic! Nothing to add! I do have something to scratch though: Vintage body = ewwww! Give me something with only good ergonomics and functionality in mind and it would be fantastic.

Such a short flange focal length would be moving away from the K-01 mirroless-with-a-mirrorbox design though. I would be all for it.
08-17-2013, 03:17 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by joel_tauzin Quote
What do you think?
Have anything to add?

I'd like FF on a DSLR, but think that people would more readily switch to Pentax if they knew they could get a more flexible, enthusiast/entry level camera that would upgrade their lenses a stop with an adapter. Does anyone think that with the huge flange focal distance of the 67 mount, that you might be able to add 2 stops to a lens with an adapter and APS-C sensor?
One cool thing that might be possible with a solution like this is to add AF on the "speed booster", the same way as it work on the AF 1.7x TC. Then it would be possible to get both the original FOV of FF lenses with APS-C sensor, and AF on manual focus lenses.

Theoratically it would be possible to add ~3.25 stops to 6x7 lenses used on APS-C camera with "speed booster". It would make something really special, as a 6x7 105/2.4 lens would turn into a 32mm f/0.7 APS-C lens, and 6x7 45/4 would become a 14/1.2.
08-17-2013, 03:55 AM   #22
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Well I don't see Ricoh joining in on the m4/3, so that mount won't come. Only othe magic trick would be making a camera with M-mount. I see this even as a profatable project, even with a low number off own new lenses.
08-18-2013, 12:32 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
One cool thing that might be possible with a solution like this is to add AF on the "speed booster", the same way as it work on the AF 1.7x TC. Then it would be possible to get both the original FOV of FF lenses with APS-C sensor, and AF on manual focus lenses.

Theoratically it would be possible to add ~3.25 stops to 6x7 lenses used on APS-C camera with "speed booster". It would make something really special, as a 6x7 105/2.4 lens would turn into a 32mm f/0.7 APS-C lens, and 6x7 45/4 would become a 14/1.2.
Or the 165 2.8 would turn into a 50mm .9! How did you come up with this math?

I do think an AF adapter would be really nice. Moreover, though, I was imagining a simple add-on to a camera, that fit securely, with no moving parts. But Pentax made teleconverters alongside the AF adapter (which obviously had to increase focal length). So, they could potentially make a few different face mounts for the camera, one that just would be a K mount, one that would telecompress, and one that would AF telecompress. Or, if the price was good enough, why not just an AF K mount and an AF K mount telecompressed.

08-18-2013, 12:45 AM   #24
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A mirrorless ILC with interchangeable EVF:
- Kit-VF.
- Large high res VF.
- VF dedicated for macro work.
- A VF optimized for working in low light or darkness.
- etc.

Would that be called ILIVC? (Interchangeable Lens Interchangeable Viewfinder Camera.) I think this would seriously be an option for extra after-market sales for Pentax. Pentaxians would soon discover Viewfinder Buying Addiction, probably?
08-18-2013, 01:02 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well I don't see Ricoh joining in on the m4/3, so that mount won't come. Only othe magic trick would be making a camera with M-mount. I see this even as a profatable project, even with a low number off own new lenses.
I think a short flange focal distance is the key to versatility when it comes to attaching 3rd party lenses with various lengths from mount to sensor. Pentax's K mount is 45.46mm, while Leica's M mount is 27.80mm; Sony Nex, at 18mm, can receive both lenses.

The control, whether it be AF, auto-aperture, or auto-zoom, comes down to something more complicated than a simple measure in construction, like flange focal distance. Cameras or adapters would have to be meticulously designed to have full function with the lenses of every other brand. This would be a huge undertaking.

On the other hand, third party lens makers have been finding ways to slightly alter their lenses to fit the big camera brands for years. Even speaking as a loyal Pentaxian, I see merit in making photography/film equipment more universal. I'd love to buy a Pentax lens knowing that the mount could be changed to Nikon or Canon. I think, maybe they could make interchangeability more user friendly.

Camera companies, I'm sure, rely on this incompatibility between brands, forcing the consumer to grow more attached to the company he/she's invested the most money in. I'd love for this forced dogmatism to end, though. I wouldn't mind combining different camera/lens systems at all, myself.
08-18-2013, 01:16 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
A mirrorless ILC with interchangeable EVF:
- Kit-VF.
- Large high res VF.
- VF dedicated for macro work.
- A VF optimized for working in low light or darkness.
- etc.

Would that be called ILIVC? (Interchangeable Lens Interchangeable Viewfinder Camera.) I think this would seriously be an option for extra after-market sales for Pentax. Pentaxians would soon discover Viewfinder Buying Addiction, probably?
Genius...

Tiny LCD screens are improving very quickly over time. I've been wanting to buy a fleabay Vuzix video eyewear set for my K-01 for awhile. I want to be able to hold my camera at any level and at awkward angles without all the contortionist work. I think if we took an EVF interface like the Samsung NX 100 but made multiple models of EVF's for it, doors would open to less conventional viewfinders. The definition of "shooting from the hip" would be challenged with a nice OVF headset coupled with a dongle on the camera, if not intrinsically streamed straight from the camera. If it could wirelessly transmit to a nice external monitor, the camera would definitely have a leg-up for shooting video, also.

Last edited by joel_tauzin; 08-18-2013 at 01:59 AM. Reason: Spelling
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