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09-14-2015, 10:08 AM   #61
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Ok. I got 2 answers both of which has nothing to do with IQ ergonomics and operability. So why not another bigger sensor Pentax mirror less and make use of mirror less advantage over dslr.
Its interesting I got only 2 almost similar answers when nayseyers have infinite reasons why they don t like mirror lesd

---------- Post added 09-15-15 at 01:09 AM ----------

Ok. I got 2 answers both of which has nothing to do with IQ ergonomics and operability. So why not another bigger sensor Pentax mirror less and make use of mirror less advantage over dslr.
Its interesting I got only 2 almost similar answers when nayseyers have infinite reasons why they don t like mirror less

09-14-2015, 02:58 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
Ok. I got 2 answers both of which has nothing to do with IQ ergonomics and operability. So why not another bigger sensor Pentax mirror less and make use of mirror less advantage over dslr.
Its interesting I got only 2 almost similar answers when nayseyers have infinite reasons why they don t like mirror lesd

---------- Post added 09-15-15 at 01:09 AM ----------

Ok. I got 2 answers both of which has nothing to do with IQ ergonomics and operability. So why not another bigger sensor Pentax mirror less and make use of mirror less advantage over dslr.
Its interesting I got only 2 almost similar answers when nayseyers have infinite reasons why they don t like mirror less
I don't know where you got "infinite reasons" from, because the only objection I recall reading was that those involved were not convinced that EVFs were as satisfactory to use as OVFs. Having used both, while I still prefer an OVF, I think an EVF is nonetheless greatly preferable to no eyepiece at all.

We're going over well-trodden ground here, but as far as ergonomics and operability are concerned, the major advantage of mirrorless is the reduced weight and, for some, size. No mirror delay or vibration is useful in some circumstances. For many, though, the relative advantages are far from cut and dried.
09-14-2015, 08:05 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
Ok. I got 2 answers both of which has nothing to do with IQ ergonomics and operability. So why not another bigger sensor Pentax mirror less and make use of mirror less advantage over dslr.
Its interesting I got only 2 almost similar answers when nayseyers have infinite reasons why they don t like mirror
I am a regular at two photograph discussion forums - this one and a completely general one - and I've been involved in a number of discussions about MILC's, so I can tell you with certainty that the actual issues are much more complex than you have implied.

The primary issue is viewfinders, but that is a multifaceted issue. Part of the issue with Pentax MILC's is simply the lack of a viewfinders; there are those who don't have any trouble at all using an LCD, but most of us do have trouble. I wanted a Q-7 because I could see it as the base of a reasonably inexpensive birding system so I was determined not to let a mere viewfinder get in the way. I bought several hoodman clones and did find an affordable one that provided a sufficiently good view for me to manually focus. Last week, I noticed a B&H special at the last moment, a collapsible hoodman at 40% off, and today a brown truck delivered it to me. Even just holding the hoodman and the Q-7 together with my hand provided me with a good view of the soccer game I was leaving for when the truck arrived; thus this unit is the perfect complement to my Q-7 when it serves as my pocket-able camera (Q-7 in one pocket and hoodman in another).. However, the various enlarging hoodmans reveal another flaw with the Pentax implementation of LCD; the screen provides a mediocre number of pixels. My usual procedure is to plan a picture before I ever look through the viewfinder, but with the Q-7, I often don't have enough detail in the viewfinder to find the landmarks I need to frame the picture I've planned, and so I miss some pictures because the scene is gone by the time I've composed the final image. The Sony EVF's I've looked through have been much better, but an EVF depends on cooperation between the sensor, a processor, and the screen; since Sony creates so many of their own components, I don't know whether Pentax has the resources to provide a viewfinder as good as what Sony can do now. Even a standard OVF gets past those problems almost by definition, and we all know that even a bottom-level Pentax OVF is so much better than average. I have heard complaints about even the Sony EVF, such as getting sick after using for a period of time, but I'm not quite what to make of them. I could go on and on, but we can't dismiss these issues as "just one little problem".

For years we've kind of had the idea that an ILC can do any job - just pick the right lens; that view ignores the fact that the traditional SLR allowed its user to change its sensor (a.k.a. film). Maybe trying to come up with the perfect digital camera for every occasion is just a myth that we should abandon. For example, by how its auto-focus and EVF systems are constructed, it is very hard for an MILC to compete with a DSLR system in photographing action activities, such as sports, so that area may turn out to be the last refuge of DSLR cameras. On the other hand, my wife and I attended a special concert last night, and I realized that noise can be very distracting at certain activities, such as shows and church services, and an MILC starts off with a tremendous head-start in those activities.

The final comment I should make concerns ergonomics. There are people who like large cameras. I got my K-30 because I got a really good deal on it, but there are some who prefer the K-30 over the K-50 because they like the K-30 grip better. Some people who use a long lens really want a large body to balance the system out (I just hold onto the lens, and view the camera as something hung on the end of the lens to complete the system). Like sports photographers,these people many never be reconciled to using an MILC.
09-17-2015, 02:55 AM - 1 Like   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I have heard complaints about even the Sony EVF, such as getting sick after using for a period of time, but I'm not quite what to make of them.
Hey whats up ! I've owned a Sony SLT with electronic viewfinder circa 2011. I never had a problem with the viewfinder making me motion sick ...... and to be quite honest, I think its a load of bollony.

I have also heard about Fujifilm viewfinders making people sick also, but I don't believe it anymore.

I think these folks were already sick, and then believe the camera made them sick because it didn't have canikon on it ! Maybe they drank a bad latte or had some bad sushi. Then they go to the liquor store and buy some cheap whiskey, go home and get drunk.

I get eye strain using an SLR, and sore arms and sore back too ....... what, am I gonna sell all my gear and quit photography, then take up breeding labradoodles ? Am I gonna quit playing xbox for fear of photo-induced epileptic seizures ?

What do they say about mirrorless users, that they're hipsters ? I think if an electronic viewfinder gives you a grumbly tummy .......... you're not "......" (something) enough !

11-01-2015, 07:07 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Hey whats up ! I've owned a Sony SLT with electronic viewfinder circa 2011. I never had a problem with the viewfinder making me motion sick ...... and to be quite honest, I think its a load of bollony.

I have also heard about Fujifilm viewfinders making people sick also, but I don't believe it anymore.

I think these folks were already sick, and then believe the camera made them sick because it didn't have canikon on it ! Maybe they drank a bad latte or had some bad sushi. Then they go to the liquor store and buy some cheap whiskey, go home and get drunk.

I get eye strain using an SLR, and sore arms and sore back too ....... what, am I gonna sell all my gear and quit photography, then take up breeding labradoodles ? Am I gonna quit playing xbox for fear of photo-induced epileptic seizures ?

What do they say about mirrorless users, that they're hipsters ? I think if an electronic viewfinder gives you a grumbly tummy .......... you're not "......" (something) enough !
Man I can watch a 3D movie no issue. I can play a fast 3D game no issue. If my sister does that she get headhakes and she vomited when we been looking avatar in 3D a few years ago. Now they can do all they want trying to sell the benefit of 3D TV or 3D movies, she is not very interrested.

I have had a collegue that is epileptic, he had to be very cautious of the number of hours he put on the front of a computer screen and take breaks every hour. It was not fun for him as it graduated in computer science.

Don't think that because YOU or ME don't have any issue than nobody has.
11-01-2015, 07:51 AM   #66
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Hey, I realize the odds are against a K-02 but if you can't dream you may as well hang it up so here's my plea for a new mirrorless like my beloved K-01 but with an updated sensor, faster AF and yeah, maybe a tilt screen. I don't care much about a viewer but if they want to throw that in so much the better for all those who have a problem with Live View.
11-10-2015, 04:54 PM - 3 Likes   #67
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I tend to use my K-01 more often than K-5 and K-3 by a factor of two. It would be quite sad if this were the end of the line for this idea. Here is a combination personal wish list and recommended product planning list for Ricoh to put in a K-02:

1) higher frame/sec when shooting RAW or RAW+JPG. 1 fps is terribly slow by today's standards.

2) Tweak to ergonomics. I actually don't mind the overall shape since I support the weight of the camera/lens by holding the lens with my left hand. And I also don't want any deep grip because really that is part of the DSLR bulk which K-01 eliminates (and I am able to squeeze the existing K-01 shape into a tiny case). The ergonomic changes that would be nice are the feeling of the dials, and button layout -- these could be made more in line with Pentax DSLR standards (sorry Marc Newson).

3) Weather sealed. Why not? Even mid-priced Pentax DSLRs are all weather-sealed now.

4) EVF or EVF add-on option. Though I have been completely fine without one, and actually learned to enjoy and get great results by composing landscapes on the LCD, an EVF would probably really open it up to greater sales. It would also make telephoto shooting possible, which, to be honest, is really not a strong suit of the K-01.

4) Autofocus improvements -- I know that no miracle can possibly happen for CDAF + standard Pentax K mount lenses, and it will always be slow. Is there any PDAF compatible sensor available? Canon M3 seems to have PDAF...

5) Imaging bells and whistles that bring it up to date with K-3 II (24MP no AA filter, selectable AA filter simulator, and super high res mode).

My guess is that the above would be sufficient to turn a K-02 into a viable product.
11-10-2015, 06:48 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by humaniform Quote
Here is a combination personal wish list and recommended product planning list for Ricoh to put in a K-02:
That's a great list. I would add some focus peaking improvements, as well as mechanical SR in video mode (currently video in K-01 is not nearly as good as it is on modern mirrorless cameras, and the digital SR with cropping is a major part here). I think some people also want microphone jack and better audio controls during the video function.
And TAv mode on the mode dial (instead of only in M mode with auto ISO)!

Just switch the yellow rubber with fake leather, and sell it in classic "silver and brown" and "all black" colours. Bam, there is the perfect mirrorless K-02. A special yellow version can be sold for us bumblebee lovers

11-11-2015, 02:06 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Man I can watch a 3D movie no issue. I can play a fast 3D game no issue. If my sister does that she get headhakes and she vomited when we been looking avatar in 3D a few years ago. Now they can do all they want trying to sell the benefit of 3D TV or 3D movies, she is not very interrested.

I have had a collegue that is epileptic, he had to be very cautious of the number of hours he put on the front of a computer screen and take breaks every hour. It was not fun for him as it graduated in computer science.

Don't think that because YOU or ME don't have any issue than nobody has.
When I bought my first DSLR (A Nikon) I had trouble with the optical viewfinder. I was doing a lot of macro photography, which caused eye strain and disorientation every time. There was a limit to how long I could do it before I was exhausted.

My second camera had an EVF, and I had become accustomed to the eye strain and problems from the first camera.

I still have trouble using an optical viewfinder causing eye strain and disorientation. Using a camera for extended periods causes eye problems regardless whether they are EVF or OVF.

It has taken me years to get accustomed to using and optical viewfinder and electronic viewfinder. I reject the argument that electronic viewfinders are somehow worse ....... in a world where the complainants have and use smart phones intensively or personal computers and video games.

It is unfair to taint or stigmatize electronic viewfinders.
11-11-2015, 06:51 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
When I bought my first DSLR (A Nikon) I had trouble with the optical viewfinder. I was doing a lot of macro photography, which caused eye strain and disorientation every time. There was a limit to how long I could do it before I was exhausted.

My second camera had an EVF, and I had become accustomed to the eye strain and problems from the first camera.

I still have trouble using an optical viewfinder causing eye strain and disorientation. Using a camera for extended periods causes eye problems regardless whether they are EVF or OVF.

It has taken me years to get accustomed to using and optical viewfinder and electronic viewfinder. I reject the argument that electronic viewfinders are somehow worse ....... in a world where the complainants have and use smart phones intensively or personal computers and video games.

It is unfair to taint or stigmatize electronic viewfinders.
Man that's your experience. It may not be the one of others so please avoid generalization from your own case for such issues.
11-11-2015, 06:54 AM - 1 Like   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
It is unfair to taint or stigmatize electronic viewfinders.
There isn't one solution that works for everyone*. People are different and this shouldn't be viewed as an insult to electronic viewfinders, or optical viewfinders, or battery grips, or manual focus, or **insert your pet feature that someone else can't stand**.


*If there was, Sony would have found it by now and all cameras would be identical and all discussion forums would be boring zones of mass agreement.
11-14-2015, 03:48 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Man that's your experience. It may not be the one of others so please avoid generalization from your own case for such issues.
When people go to Disneyland or carnivals and go on the tea-cup ride or any ride for that matter, certain folks get quite sick and vomit. These people have a weaker constitution and lower personal fortitude ............

Now should we label carnival rides as a bad thing ?

There's nothing wrong with carnival rides, but there's something wrong with some folks who get queasy on carnival rides.

Now if I stood in the line up to a ride, and the queasy folks were to stand there and tell me how horrible the ride was and they were badly dizzy, nauseous and they vomited from it, how should I respond ? Should I step away from the ride and not go on it and enjoy it ?

What if the voices of these folks grew strong on the internet and tried to build up a case against carnival rides ?

Similarly, there are people who put a camera to their eye and complain about feeling nausea, and particularly with electronic viewfinders. Now its not a carnival ride, its a viewfinder, and thats a person with a very weak constitution and lacking a certain physical fortitude.

Having a weak constitution or lacking physical fortitude, is not a disability, but this is sort of how people are acting regarding this issue. They're sort of acting like using an electronic viewfinder made them "almost" disabled ....... I mean come on !

I saw a video on youtube (I forget which one) by some pro photographer, who claimed he bought a Fujifilm X-T1, but he returned it after a week complaining about motion sickness and nausea from the electronic viewfinder ...............

Its the electronic viewfinders fault ! and EVF's are bad !

No. Its the persons fault ! They have a weak constitution !

Just the same as carnival rides. Carnival rides are not bad ....... they're really quite fun .......and the folks with the weak constitution have the problem.

Now there's also another dynamic to this argument against electronic viewfinders:

The Canikon !

Mirrorless is here, or its coming ! DSLR's are about to go the way of the Dodo bird, and Mirrorless is going to take over ...... thats the mirrorless hype.

How can the Canikon dismantle Mirrorless? By spreading innuendo and negativity about mirrorless, particularly the EVF's. So when ever I see a professional photographer dumping on mirrorless because of the EVF, I know he's just blow smoke up my......

I started out with a Nikon DSLR, and switched to Sony, and then to Pentax. I've got a fuji without an evf. Now Pentax where I live has such a bad reputation, and people online and in camera magazines often criticize Pentax. I initially thought that Pentax was a bad brand. Now I realize that Pentax is a GREAT brand, and I wish the innuendo out there hadn't been so scornful towards Pentax, and I wish I had have bought into Pentax from the start - I would have saved myself a lot of money and frustration.

So ! I don't care about what people say about Pentax. I don't pay no mind to those demonizing electronic viewfinders. And I most certainly don't take the advice of some dude throwing up next to the Twizzler at the carnival. If you can't handle it, then don't complain about it.

The argument being presented against electronic viewfinders has no basis in logic.

If a person suffers from a diagnosed medical condition, they should seek advice from their medical practitioner prior to purchasing any electronic device with or without an electronic viewfinder.
11-14-2015, 04:10 AM   #73
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Man this is not to say EVF are bad or good that Disneyland is bad or good.

And already, disneyland take great care to measure the level of sensations they give so it can be enjoyed by most. The duration of the experience is controlled. And if you don't want to go for space mountain, or a tea pot ride, you still have pirates of caribbean. Don't think most people going to disneyland or carnival take the sensation heavy attraction. Only a few do it. And many people never go to disneyland to begin with.

But if you take care disneyland display notice everywhere of the minimum age, that you should be carefull if you are pregnant and so on. They don't try to hide. When an attraction will provide some sensation people understand it and choose for themselve.

So there no issue to me to be straight and say that the EVF have some benefit like you can display anything inside, you can still have a bright view with a lens that is f/8 wide open and so on. And to say also that it can't display the dynamic range of the real scene, that the colors appear less natural, that there some lag that you need to be accustomed too and that may be unpleasant or even really annoying to some.

To me, it is like you want you to hide the reality.

Let people get the information and choose for themselves.
11-14-2015, 04:37 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
It is like you want you to hide the reality.
My EVF experience was fine with a camera released in 2011. The reality is, is the image displayed on an EVF is no different to whats being displayed on the rear screen. It was a tiny bit laggy, but you simply work with that. The worst problem I had was at night, where the image was quite indiscernible, however, the camera itself locked on to my subjects, and took great pics. So in low light, EVF's are not great, but they still work.

But thats the trade-off ! No mirror slap wrecking images, and poor low light imaging.

The reality of EVF'S aren't too bad, they're not perfect, and a skillful person can easily work with it. Much like a K-01, folks with some skill can achieve a lot with only the rear screen.

I think folks are overstating the "reality" as you call it, to bully mirrorless out of the market place - much like they do with Pentax.

Many shops where I live have stopped stocking the display cases with Pentax .......... because the pro's who work part time in stores, won't sell Pentax, they de-emphasize mirrorless, and push Canikon. The shelves are full to bursting with Canon and Nikon cameras and lenses. Like they're the only two brands on planet earth.

The influence of professional Canikon users is pushing other players out of my local market - PHYSICALLY within stores !

The gripes against mirrorless are far too much ........ better stick with Nikon and Canon.
11-14-2015, 07:01 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
So there no issue to me to be straight and say that the EVF have some benefit like you can display anything inside, you can still have a bright view with a lens that is f/8 wide open and so on. And to say also that it can't display the dynamic range of the real scene, that the colors appear less natural, that there some lag that you need to be accustomed too and that may be unpleasant or even really annoying to some.

To me, it is like you want you to hide the reality.
This may simply be a case of how we use English, but to me "hide" is not the best word to use; I would probably use a neutral word like "modify" instead. The view in an EVF is essentially what I get off the LCD using my Hoodman, but without the "bother" of carrying and using the Hoodman. There are good points and there are bad points to an EVF, just as there are good points and bad points to using an LCD. The LCD on my Q-7 is not a great LCD, but it basically gets the job done, most of the time.

Any LCD (and therefore any EVF) will, by definition, not transmit as much detail as is contained in the original scene; when taking pictures in the desert-ish areas near San Diego while visiting my daughter, I had trouble composing pictures with my Q-7, because the natural low-contrast of that kind of terrain made it difficult for me to use the LCD to find the composition points I had already selected in my mind, while I had no trouble finding them using the OVF on the ancient Canon Rebel I was using at the time. On the other hand, the opposite was true when taking pictures inside a dark-ish church. There is a certain amount of delay between the actual scene and what is visible in the LCD/EVF, which just adds slightly to the delay I'm already dealing with when taking pictures that involve movement; that might be a big problem if I were still using a camera, like my Super Program, which didn't have a motor-drive, but here I just need to press the shutter a split-second earlier and hold the button down one frame longer.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Let people get the information and choose for themselves.
We agree 100% here
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