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12-01-2015, 05:52 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
How can you possibly know whether or not the DA40 XS hindered sales?



Yes, Oly is selling well. And what's the strength of the m4/3 lens system? Primes.

You have completely missed my point about Fuji. I only cited their 2 kit lens offerings as examples of quality kit lenses, I made no other comment about Fuji.

I'm looking at the situation pragmatically. The el-cheapo Pentax zooms are not very good. So... which current cheap lenses are? The DA 35/2.4 and the DA 50/1.8. The DA 50/1.8 is kinda long on APS-C, so that leaves the 35. My issue is not with "zooms", my issue is with "low quality zooms". If Pentax wishes to build a better zoom for the hypothetical K-02, that would be great, but I don't think they will.
yeah but my point is that mirrorless market is about basic consumer, even more than DSLR. They want better pictures from a better camera. But they don't want the bulk inconveniance and so on. They replace more the entry level DSLR and people that never buy another lens. They simply don't care. Sigma explained it and that is why their mirorless offering is so light right now (and they have nothing in Fuji mount, neither sony FE). That also match the sales and Olympus positionning for the Pen or even OMD 10. And when you even look at m4/3 there many lenses (2 time each almost because each manufacturer want a complete line) but most of the line up is entry level. Many cheap zooms, some cheap primes; There only a few quality lenses and quite expensive. If you compare it to Pentax offering, there almost only quality, expensive gear. Pentax relies on third party for cheap lenses.

Canikon, Sony, Pentax have choice to put highend segment either in mirorless or DSLR. Except Sony, they all prefer DSLRs. They may be wrong, but there may be a reason too.

Basically, if Pentax make a highend mirorless it will eat the FF and APSC flagship sales, meaning more fragmentation. it would require an advenced sensor with PDAF included as well as a nice EVF just to enter in the game of highend. It would still be the size/weight of at least a K-S1 anyway due to K-mount or worse, require a whole new set of incompatibles lenses.

And if they target entry level, K-mount is not an option: make the camera too big. And they need to have a nice zoom with it, a very small one. Not primes.

This is not easy.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-01-2015 at 05:59 PM.
12-02-2015, 01:26 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
Pentax is often ignored as brand name, something I hope will chance once this FF comes out. If it sells well, Pentax might get the money reserves to try a K-02. This is a big advantage that Sony and Canikon have. Sony has lots of money to experiment. Canikon have high brand recognizably, so they can raise prices or sell not-so-great cameras without problem.
Look, I doubt that Pentax having a 35mm DSLR will change anything. The big problem in my view is the professional community is extremely attached to either Canon and Nikon. The pros dominate the media, internet, youtube, Magazines, even in stores, and they always push canikon. Pentax would have to copy canikon, and make a similar dslr lineup, and have some huge lens catalog with professional long lenses. Then a support network, a sponsorship program etc etc. I've heard many many times people declare that both Canon and Nikon is the "industry standard". Pentax, Sony, Fujifilm, Olympus and Panasonic are "not the industry standard" by the pros where I live ...........not that I care what the pros say anymore.

The professionals have created this duopoly in the market by shunning other brands, or by stigmatizing them, for whatever: sensors are too small etc etc.

My reason for wanting a K-02, is the same as the Pentax FF. Pentax decided to make a full frame (35mm) to stop the leak where photographers wanted a FF frame, and they had to abandon the Pentax brand. The full frame is a plug.

A mirrorless is a plug too. I've gone to a Fuji mirrorless, I think its pretty good, but it ain't no Pentax, and I bet Pentax could make a better one with better ergonomics, and firmware stability, weather sealing, plus all the added features of IBIS and the Pentax Prime image processing engine.

---------- Post added 12-02-15 at 06:42 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
- Including a quality prime would help with product differentiation. Not going for the soccer-mom set. Let Canon do that and lose money.
I would have to disagree. Lets not discriminate against the soccer-mom set, they too need a zoom twin lens kit, and we should not deny them!

What you'd really want is a kick-a** K-02 with a series of excellent Limited's, but on its own mount. Those lenses need to compete against existing mirrorless lens competition, because they're extremely sharp.

And you are right, those 18-55 and 55-200, just don't cut it against mirrorless equivalents. They have to be remade.
12-02-2015, 01:51 AM   #93
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zoolander, if you want mirorless with ltds, you are better of with Fuji for know. Pentax will not do soon because of mount fragmentation. That would not be profitable for them. They would also have the same issues as Fuji: big teles, no third party lens offering, limited echosystem...

But there is a problem. Fuji, they didn't really improve their camera recently and I don't think they own a big market share. m4/3 is the leader here followed by Sony E. I am not sure they'ill continue for long investing in. If I was Pentax seeing that I wouldn't not want to copy them.
12-02-2015, 02:52 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
zoolander, if you want mirorless with ltds, you are better of with Fuji for know. Pentax will not do soon because of mount fragmentation. That would not be profitable for them. They would also have the same issues as Fuji: big teles, no third party lens offering, limited echosystem...
Third party makers for Fuji are the Zeiss Touit's and Samyang as far as I know. But thats not the point. The point to my idea is that Pentax makes a similar lens range to the Sony nex range, but the primes could be several limited style lenses.

Limiteds is what differentiates Pentax, but limited's with a new dedicated lens mount, plus rain proofing, IBIS and ergonomics. Pentax made the Q lens range, why can't they make some lenses for mirrorless apsc or ff.

When you buy into a system, you check out how good the body is, and then you see what lenses are available, and if there's a handfull of good lenses and an adapter to mount K-mount long lenses, then that would be attractive.

12-02-2015, 06:39 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Third party makers for Fuji are the Zeiss Touit's and Samyang as far as I know. But thats not the point. The point to my idea is that Pentax makes a similar lens range to the Sony nex range, but the primes could be several limited style lenses.

Limiteds is what differentiates Pentax, but limited's with a new dedicated lens mount, plus rain proofing, IBIS and ergonomics. Pentax made the Q lens range, why can't they make some lenses for mirrorless apsc or ff.

When you buy into a system, you check out how good the body is, and then you see what lenses are available, and if there's a handfull of good lenses and an adapter to mount K-mount long lenses, then that would be attractive.


What if they made the K-02 with a new mount so it could be smaller. Develop a few lenses for the mount for now. But then sell the K-02 with a adapter, that you can use the k-mount lenses right away. ( like a kit, but instead of a lens, an adapter)
12-03-2015, 02:20 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Macario Quote
What if they made the K-02 with a new mount so it could be smaller. Develop a few lenses for the mount for now. But then sell the K-02 with a adapter, that you can use the k-mount lenses right away. ( like a kit, but instead of a lens, an adapter)
Bingo ! I think everybody would go for that !

But only one small problem ........ almost everybody is doing this. Pentax needs a better angle, and I think developing a hand full of limited's in the new mount, and this would make the system stand out. I mean thats one aspect of the existing Pentax line up that appeals to many, and makes Pentax an interesting camera and lens maker. I'm not interested in FF, I like APSC, and Pentax DSLR's have the kit lenses, the sharp rain sealed DA* lenses and the Limiteds. Yeah you can get some more traditional 85 1.4's etc through third parties, but thats like APSC in canikon, and its so dull and monotonous ....... Pentax does something different and really good.
12-03-2015, 03:10 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Bingo ! I think everybody would go for that !

But only one small problem ........ almost everybody is doing this. Pentax needs a better angle, and I think developing a hand full of limited's in the new mount, and this would make the system stand out. I mean thats one aspect of the existing Pentax line up that appeals to many, and makes Pentax an interesting camera and lens maker. I'm not interested in FF, I like APSC, and Pentax DSLR's have the kit lenses, the sharp rain sealed DA* lenses and the Limiteds. Yeah you can get some more traditional 85 1.4's etc through third parties, but thats like APSC in canikon, and its so dull and monotonous ....... Pentax does something different and really good.


Yes I know others also provide an adapter. But wouldn't it be unique if it would be standard a part of the package for the K-02. So you wouldn't have to purchase one separately
12-03-2015, 03:21 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Macario Quote
Yes I know others also provide an adapter. But wouldn't it be unique if it would be standard a part of the package for the K-02. So you wouldn't have to purchase one separately
That would be ideal, buyers need an incentive, I didn't mean the adapter bundled with the body was a bad idea, its a great idea. But generally speaking, you (Pentax) would need to do something special, something that the others don't really offer, and that could be limiteds in the new mount.

But if a K-02 was released with a new mount and it was a really really cool camera, Pentax would try to make money selling those adapters separately. BUT! something similar and cheaper will come out sooner or later from China on ebay.

12-03-2015, 04:04 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
That would be ideal, buyers need an incentive, I didn't mean the adapter bundled with the body was a bad idea, its a great idea. But generally speaking, you (Pentax) would need to do something special, something that the others don't really offer, and that could be limiteds in the new mount.

But if a K-02 was released with a new mount and it was a really really cool camera, Pentax would try to make money selling those adapters separately. BUT! something similar and cheaper will come out sooner or later from China on ebay.

excactly,


so don't sell the camera without an adapter. make it really a part of the package (I know there will be haters then who will say I don't need an adapter, but well we can't please everybody.). And just develop good small lenses to be used without adapter.
04-04-2016, 04:57 AM   #100
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I would like something like Sony a5000, just with PENTAX written on it.
04-04-2016, 09:58 AM   #101
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Go buy a Sony A5000 and a Pentax sticker then. A rebrand would be as meaningless as the Hasselblad Lunar. It must be a Pentax product throughout go give meaning. SR, DNG, WR, K-mount and so on.
04-04-2016, 12:19 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Go buy a Sony A5000 and a Pentax sticker then. A rebrand would be as meaningless as the Hasselblad Lunar. It must be a Pentax product throughout go give meaning. SR, DNG, WR, K-mount and so on.
Still looking for the good enough sticker

Although to be honest, I prefer Pentax menu system to the Sony one. That said a digital body is just a box to hold the sensor in my opinion. Pentax boxes do have some advantages over the competition like, for example, in body stabilization and so on at a fairly competitive price point. So what I was meaning with my comment was that I would like to see the Pentax to do a proper mirrorless by taking into account the lessons learned from K-01. Something with a bit larger sensor than Q is that is. If it's mico 4/3 or APS-C or something between m43 and full frame is just a technicality. What is important is the glass in front of that sensor and that Pentax does well in my opinion.

Fortunately, as far as K mount goes that is easy to achieve on most bodies with flange distance lower than K-mount which is in essence all the common mirror-less formats with a dedicated mount. If using legacy glass then losing all electrical connectivity is not all that big issue either as its usually fully manual anyway.
04-04-2016, 01:13 PM   #103
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I'm sorry for starting with a rude sentence. I fully agree on the proper Pentax mirrorless, but I would prefer the K mount over the potential benefits of shorter flange distance (including lens benefints), because moving to a system with initially zero lenses is a major disadvantage. Building a lens collection from scratch is extremely expensive and could be the end of a relatively small company. I'm not so sure Ricoh would back up that financially after taking a huge investment in the K-1 and FF lenses. In theory Pentax could use one of the existing mounts out there, like the Sony E mount, or Samsung NX, but I can already forecast that could mean trouble in the future. Thats why I want Pentax to stick to the K mount for APS-C mirrorless. The larger flange distance offers a huge benefit in investment and can even offer technical benefits like full off sensor PDAF combined with EVF or room for retractable Pentax lenses (I read some where that they had a prototype wide angle prime that was partly retracted into the mirror house.)

Medium format can be a good place to start thinking about a new mount. The current mount means very bulky cameras and the aperture seems to be limited to about f/2,4-2,8 by the flange diameter and flange-sensor distance. Pentax have a much smaller selection of 645 lenses, where many of them (mainly tele lenses) just need an adapter (or extended barrel) to fit a shorter flange distance. Its just the wide angle and large aperture lenses that need to be redesigned to take full advantage. Besides the technical easyness, there is currently no competition in that market. Its a business opportunity waiting to be realized. Pentax can once again turn the medium format market upside down, in stead of going in someone elses old footsteps.
04-06-2016, 04:29 AM   #104
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This new Sigma SD Quattro and Quattro H is the kind of thing I'm talking about:

Sigma Joins the Mirrorless Wars with the sd Quattro and sd Quattro H

BUT, I wouldn't use the Sigma SD mount style here for a Pentax K-02. I think K-mount adapter with an inbuilt motor and a new mirrorless mount for smaller lenses would suit me.

But this is all wishful thinking considering the K-1 is coming out soon and Pentax has struggled to deliver lenses - of their own design - for the K-1. I think a K-02 is a pipe dream now, but I think I read somewhere that Ricoh is going to get into the mirrorless market ........... just as Samsung is trying to get out. Ricoh is dooooooooooomed ! Maybe Samsung could sell Ricoh its camera division.
04-06-2016, 05:03 AM   #105
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Pentax NX...OK!
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