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01-01-2016, 08:33 AM - 1 Like   #31
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What, you're saying here, one has to ask, if you're a fan of EVF's, what are you doing in a Pentax forum... Pentax doesn't make one, in fact Pentax execs have stated in an interview a while ago that EVF technology isn't where they'd want it to be yet. Sony may be able to get by selling to new users, and gadget enthusiasts, that's not the Pentax market.

But to answer my question... many of the EVF advocates on here seem to think that they are some kind of cutting edge, wave of the future kind of people. I spent an hour in a brick and mortar store, checking out different things, but mostly EVFs, and I have to say, by my standards, EVF isn't there yet. I agree with the Pentax reps. And that's one of the reasons I'm still with Pentax. They are a conservative company that understands my mindset. I'll use what I have until they make something better. I'm not interested in trade offs or fad value. I know how to work with what I have. Something like EVF means I have to ditch my current knowledge. I won't do that to get the same results. maybe for people with few photographic skills, it doesn't make any difference which they learn, both have advantages, but for some one functional in one system, as of yet, there's no pay off, that makes switching worthwhile.

Being able to enlarge the image for better focusing, is only worthwhile if you aren't achieving the focus you want with what you have, as bad as my eyes are, I have no trouble with MF on an OVF. Better is only better if what you have isn't good enough.

01-01-2016, 10:07 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
At least here in Germany, whenever we talked about aperture coupler, manual focus etc. with a Pentax representative, they always dismissed it and made jokes about it.
They do get jokes about it, to make you think that a proper focusing screen is dumb and useless.

Well, then, tell me why the 2 biggest player in the DSLR fields offers focusing screens for their high end models ? Maybe they are just newbies ... well, newbies with 90% of market share then !
01-01-2016, 10:22 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
They do get jokes about it, to make you think that a proper focusing screen is dumb and useless.

Well, then, tell me why the 2 biggest player in the DSLR fields offers focusing screens for their high end models ? Maybe they are just newbies ... well, newbies with 90% of market share then !
And what percent of the customers buy those focusing screens and how many units does that translates to in the Pentax world with not ever 5% of their market share. What makes sense for Canon and Nikon doesn't necessarily make sense for Pentax. It's all about the economics. There might be .01% of Canikon users who need those screens enough to purchase them. And you're absolutely nuts implying that 90% of the market share purchase additional focussing screens. Pullease, no one is that dumb. 90% of the market, do not purchase focussing screen beyond that provided by the camera. I'd be amazed if my estimate of 1/1000 wasn't a gross exaggeration of the demand. There's been some speculation that Pentax makes money by selling about 50,000( my probably grossly over exaggerated estimate of 1/1000 purchasers would translate to the possibility of selling 50 focussing screens for a given Pentax camera.) units of most cameras. The numbers suggest, if they suggest anything, that better focusing screens are irrelevant to the vast (I mean overwhelming, even by the usual "vast" standards) majority of shooters, and if you're going to build a brand on that, you're going to have very low market share.
01-01-2016, 10:30 AM   #34
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I would book this under "advertising".
It does not cost much, but is winning favors.

01-01-2016, 10:42 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The numbers suggest, if they suggest anything, that better focusing screens are irrelevant to the vast (I mean overwhelming, even by the usual "vast" standards) majority of shooters, and if you're going to build a brand on that, you're going to have very low market share.
What part of "High end models" didn't you get ?

Of course, offering the possibility to get other focusing screen won't make a business model. There is no discussion here.

The point is that if you want to kill EVF, just offer a good OVF and that comes with the possibility to get other focusing screen than the standard one that gives you the DoF of an f8 lens.

But that comes with the fact that average AF system will really appear as average (because you could easily see if the focus is were it should be).

And no, of course, you don't produce like 10.000 focusing screen. You juste create like 100 of each, and that cheap possibility is what will make professionals comes to your brand instead of another. It's just the existence of that possibility (that most won't use) that makes the product a tad better to the eye of the customer.

It's like WIFI or GPS coordonates in pictures : maybe 1% of the customer use it, but how many did buy the DSLR or the Camera because the possibility to do it was there ?

Take astro-tracing in the K3II : how many people who intend to use it, really use it ? Maybe not that much, but hey ! they did get the K3II instead of the D7200 !

QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
I would book this under "advertising".
It does not cost much, but is winning favors.
01-01-2016, 11:13 AM   #36
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When we're asking whether the K-1 will be a professional camera we should always append the word 'System'.

The issue isn't a choice of focusing screens. Find a copy of the full-line product brochure for the K or M cameras or the LX. 80% or more of the brochure was lenses and accessories. How many people actually bought a K120/2.8 (which I want if I can find one) or a K150/4? How many people bought bellows or Correction Lens Adapters or a Monocular Converter K? How many bought motor drives or long cables or TC's or LX viewfinders or . . . . the list is endless.

Pentax lacks the entire array of accessories that define a camera 'System' as opposed to a camera 'Model'. They don't (at this time) have the market footprint, sales volume or resources to support accessories at all. They can barely do flashes and grips!!

At this time Pentax does not offer a professional camera system.
01-01-2016, 02:24 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I've picked up a number of mirrorless over the holidays and I haven't been impressed at all.
Going after Sony's market share is a waste of time. They are still small player in the camera business. Nothing you say is anything other than a hope and a prayer. You hope new variations would produce positive results, but that's not a certainty by a long shot. iN fact it's the other way around, it's a long shot, a unlikely very long shot.
Wtf? Your post is pointless....of course I stated my hopes and opinions, that's kind of what folks do on this forum.

Ricoh wants bigger chunk of the market. They purchased Pentax in hopes of achieving this goal. They play around with unique designs in hopes of achieving this goal. They offer continual improvements on highly successful models to...blah blah. Ricoh wants to make more money and sell more stuff than they did last year, and I for one hope they do. The GR has been a perennial success for them, hopefully moving it forward with new variations or iterations will in small part generate profit and *ghasp* possibly increase market share.
01-08-2016, 08:53 PM   #38
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My view on this subject. . .

I am a fan of EVFs. Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Fujifilm are all having great success with mirrorless cameras and EVF technology. I do, in fact, think that mirrorless system cameras are going to gradually win out over DSLRs.

However, the management at Ricoh/Pentax clearly don't see things the way I do. And that's OK. That's why we have all these different companies in the camera business. If I was shopping for a new camera system today -- body and lenses, money not an issue -- I would go and buy a Fuji X-T1 rather than sit around waiting for Pentax to change their strategy and introduce something similar to a Fuji X-T1.

Meanwhile, I find I'm using the Q7 more than anything else these days, and with generally good results. Even other Pentax users often seem to dismiss the Q system a bit too casually, I think.

01-08-2016, 09:04 PM   #39
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Good stuff. Insightful as always. Thanks and more comments are welcomed.
01-08-2016, 10:03 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
My view on this subject. . .

I am a fan of EVFs. Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Fujifilm are all having great success with mirrorless cameras and EVF technology. I do, in fact, think that mirrorless system cameras are going to gradually win out over DSLRs.

However, the management at Ricoh/Pentax clearly don't see things the way I do. And that's OK. That's why we have all these different companies in the camera business. If I was shopping for a new camera system today -- body and lenses, money not an issue -- I would go and buy a Fuji X-T1 rather than sit around waiting for Pentax to change their strategy and introduce something similar to a Fuji X-T1.

Meanwhile, I find I'm using the Q7 more than anything else these days, and with generally good results. Even other Pentax users often seem to dismiss the Q system a bit too casually, I think.
Yes, inside I pick up my Q-7 about as often as I do the K-30, especially if I don't need flash or wide-angle, since my Q-7 is a tad unbalanced with the flashes I tend to use the most, and I don't have a 08. As I believe I have already mentioned here. I used the Q-7 more than the K-30 during the holiday season, because I constantly found myself slipping the Q-7 into my pocket as I headed for the door and yet another event of some sort or another - I took it to church, to a concert, to parties, ...

Outside, not so much, since my hoodman is more awkward to use. Without an EVF, I'm not certain I'd buy another Q, but based on my history, Pentax probably has another five years or so to come out with one. If they haven't done that by then, most likely I'd get an Olympus MFT camera.

Last edited by reh321; 01-08-2016 at 10:24 PM. Reason: added thought.
01-15-2016, 09:06 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We achieved critical focus just fine prior to something like 2010. Especially with ancient technology like film cameras.

To me an EVF is a bug, not a feature.
A lot of film cameras were mirrorless. Several of mine are. For critical focus one uses a focusing loupe of course. They are not great in sports or bird in flight photography though

EVF, OVF, WLF, groundglass, all different means to an end with none of them being the only correct way to go.
01-15-2016, 09:51 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
I do, in fact, think that mirrorless system cameras are going to gradually win out over DSLRs.
Inasmuch as we will one day get to the point where it will be impossible to tell, just by looking at the picture, whether it is an OVF or EVF (at least until the battery fails), you may be right. I went from film to digital when I felt the image quality at the print size I wanted was indistinguishable from film. I may move to mirrorless when I feel EVFs have advanced to the same level. Until then, I know I probably won't get my ideal Pentax camera, which can basically be summarised as the full-frame MX-D.
02-21-2016, 12:39 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by starjedi Quote
I do not buy the idea that mirrorless is the future. No one can predict exactly what the future trend is . remembering OVF+ Mirror+ mirrorless functions = DSLR. All the techinical advances in mirrorless side can also apply to DSLR. So DSLR always delivers more functionalities than mirrorless.

Moreover, for mirrorless FF, it is not fun when people gets a 300g body and hold a 1000g lens.. For those people who like compact and lightweight, new generation of cell phone camera might be a much better solution... For example, it is not impossible for a cell phone to employ mutlpile sensors+ lenses in front so it can get super-resolution photos and 3D photos automatically.
Ive been wondering just how "smile shutter" can work on a dslr. Using liveview with the mirror up?
02-23-2016, 09:06 AM   #44
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There seems to be a business in aftermarket screens, at least there was in the past. The Katzeye was a big improvement for my K3, and I don't see why Pentax can't offer some alternatives. This is not a huge engineering task like making a mirrorless camera system would be.
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