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05-02-2018, 11:20 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
That article is emblematic of the devolution of DPR as they have gone from being a once useful portal to a funnel for
sensationalist, click-bait coverage. At present, DPR is like the Fox News MSNBC of camera news sites.

DSLRs don't reign. The SLR form factor has proven very popular for a reason, (many reasons, actually). But there were and still
are alternatives for anyone wanting or needing something different.

Mirrorless cameras may very well become the most popular format in the decades ahead, particularly as the
format improves. Nonetheless, that does not mean that mirrorless cameras will 'reign', or that only mirrorless
cameras will be able to get the job done, OR that any camera manufacturer not jumping on the mirrorless
bandwagon will become obsolete. I guarantee the SLR format will continue to hold preference for many
shooters for many years to come.

Far too much is made of the "brand X doesn't do what brand Y does". Buy brand Y if you want the features
offered by brand Y, simple as that. Pentax >has< made mirrorless cameras in the past and I personally won't
be surprised when they begin making them again, though I'm sure they'll be distinctive in their own Pentax
way. However, for the present Pentax is very firmly committed to making excellent, rugged, feature-rich,
ergonomic DSLRs and they do that very, very well.
None of them is objective. Objective reporting doesn’t get clicks - or viewers.

05-02-2018, 01:34 PM   #17
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I like mirrorless because of the size. Loss of IQ compared to my K1? Certainly, but I doubt anyone looking at the images I post can tell without reading the EXIF data which camera I was using. One thing I really like about MFT = focus peaking with any lens AF or MF, through the viewfinder. That is a real help with macro. Another thing I really like: the tilt-up viewfinder on my Pany GX8. Again, a real help for macro, and vastly better than either the tilt screen on my K1 or attaching my old refconverter. And although a lens of the same FL and maximum aperture will be the same size, my Pany/Leica 100~400mm (FF equivalent of 200~800mm) is more compact and lighter than my Pentax 60~250mm, albeit with a smaller maximum f-stop. As with zoom lenses versus primes, MFT versus APS-C or FF is a matter of convenience over maximum possible IQ.
05-02-2018, 01:43 PM - 1 Like   #18
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Thinks such as high quality lenses and sensor size provide the imaging baseline. For me mirrorless is not a must have, although it is promoted very hard, it's more of a fad and peer pressure rather than any significant photographic advantage. Of course when the new systems will be a lot better than my current Pentax K1 system, I'll upgrade with what's available. But at the moment, this promotional push for mirrorless is more like some companies trying to steal our freedom of choice.

---------- Post added 02-05-18 at 22:46 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
I like mirrorless because of the size.
The size advantage is more related to sensor size , rather than with or without mirror. It's clear that the Pany/Leica 100~400mm is a lot more portable than a DFA150450, pixel density helps a lot if the light is good , images are good.
05-02-2018, 02:13 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
One thing I really like about MFT = focus peaking with any lens AF or MF, through the viewfinder. That is a real help with macro..
Agreed. I just tried the sony a6000 today with manual lens and with the electronic EVF, i like the focus peaking functionality on the viewfinder. Very helpful if you are using a viewfinder to focus manual lens. An optical viewfinder can't do that. It was hard to focus on winde angle lens on optical viewfinder because everything is small, but with Electronic evf its better. Makes using manual lenses a breeze

05-02-2018, 02:46 PM - 3 Likes   #20
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All this "mirrorless bandwagon" nonsense is fake news repeated so many times some have come to believe it..

In point of fact, it's DSLR cameras that are the more popular ones. The DSLR bandwagon is the bigger one.

Insisting that Pentax must make mirrorless cameras makes as much sense as insisting that Canon must make M4/3rds or medium format cameras. Why must a maker of one kind of camera make all kinds of cameras?
05-02-2018, 02:47 PM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Thinks such as high quality lenses and sensor size provide the imaging baseline. For me mirrorless is not a must have, although it is promoted very hard, it's more of a fad and peer pressure rather than any significant photographic advantage. Of course when the new systems will be a lot better than my current Pentax K1 system, I'll upgrade with what's available. But at the moment, this promotional push for mirrorless is more like some companies trying to steal our freedom of choice.

---------- Post added 02-05-18 at 22:46 ----------


The size advantage is more related to sensor size , rather than with or without mirror. It's clear that the Pany/Leica 100~400mm is a lot more portable than a DFA150450, pixel density helps a lot if the light is good , images are good.
There’s more to this than any one element or technical item. IQ, features, lenses, ergos, third parties, aftersales and warranty, workshops and other events - all can play their part in choosing a system.

What happens with cameras will be decided in Asia, I think. Thanks where the key market and the money is now. We’ll get what they want, not the other way round.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-02-2018 at 02:54 PM.
05-02-2018, 03:43 PM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter van Baarle Quote
I wonder why Pentax has not yet jumped the mirrorless bandwagon (or rather, jumped off after the K01), I feel they are digging their own grave...

CP+ 2018 interviews: The reign of the DSLR is almost over...: Digital Photography Review
Ricoh have made it very clear that they prefer to produce Pentax cameras with optical viewfinders. Pentax has a huge loyal fan base that want optical viewfinders. While some camera buyers like electronic viewfinders, most users who prefer optical viewfinders find electronic viewfinders are lacking. EVF is a compromise. As one example, it's incredibly annoying to pan an object and have the lag that comes with EVF. The experience of looking through the viewfinder is not an enjoyable one.

If, at some point in the future, the experience of looking through an EVF is as good as looking through an OVF, then I'm sure we can start using phrasing like "digging their own grave". Until that day comes (and I predict it's a long way off) Pentax will have many happy customers for their DSLR cameras.
05-02-2018, 04:18 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
What happens with cameras will be decided in Asia, I think. Thanks where the key market and the money is now. Weíll get what they want, not the other way round.
If Asia decides, then DSLRs will win.

If Japan decides, then both mirrorless and DSLRs will die because the Japanese actually still love their tiny built-in lens cameras 2:1 over interchangeables.

And Asia + Japan is only about half the market. The other half (Europe+Americas) which still prefers DSLRs almost 3:1.

There lots of money all around the world now and it's continuing to ask for all kinds of cameras.

05-02-2018, 05:01 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by donpjt Quote
n my opinion the reason mirrorless cameras have become popular is not because of their size, but only because they offer better video capabilities.
I'm sure you're onto something there. The importance of video just grows and grows. There are lots of still photographers who have added video to their skill set because of the sheer demand.

AlsoÖ EVFs offer some legitimate advantages, and a significant portion of photographers actually prefer them. What's really striking to me is that Pentax have dabbled with mirrorless, and they've made plenty of cameras that depend on a LCD for composition (K-01, Q series, MX-1, Ricoh GR) but appear highly allergic to EVFs.

---------- Post added 05-02-18 at 07:07 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Ricoh have made it very clear that they prefer to produce Pentax cameras with optical viewfinders. Pentax has a huge loyal fan base that want optical viewfinders.
I wanted to underscore this because, again, we've had the MX-1, the GR, the Q series, the K-01, none of which came with an optical viewfinder. Making a camera without an optical viewfinder doesn't seem to be any sort of taboo or religious issue for Ricoh/Pentax. Where they seem really steadfast is their avoidance of any EVFs.
05-02-2018, 06:05 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
What happens with cameras will be decided in Asia, I think. Thanks where the key market and the money is now. We’ll get what they want, not the other way round.
Median age in Asian countries is low so most of them may be content with Phone. The ones who are interested in SLR may go with the brand that is easily available in that country. Most probably those brands are Sony and Canon. If those brands push MIrrorless, then population will get used to Mirrorless.

Honestly I do not think Asian consumer controls the SLR road map because common man in Asia can not afford to buy SLR. Unlike consumer electronics there are no Chinese & Taiwanese manufacturers making the SLR cameras affordable. Number of camera makers has not changed pre-2000 & post-2000, that is not case say in case of laptop.
05-02-2018, 08:21 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
There’s more to this than any one element or technical item. IQ, features, lenses, ergos, third parties, aftersales and warranty, workshops and other events - all can play their part in choosing a system. What happens with cameras will be decided in Asia, I think. Thanks where the key market and the money is now. We’ll get what they want, not the other way round.
Are you trying to convince me? Peer pressure , as I said. I bought a K1 system 2 years ago, it works great, I won't buy another expensive system anytime soon, with or without mirrors, no matter how many people are trying to sell a mirrorless system to me. Recently, I went to a shop for a lens exchange (Pentax), but the seller show cased me some mirrorless cameras, I tried. When trying the mirrorless, I felt the tiny little grip and also feld pain in my eye from looking in the evf, and I compared AF to my K1 and 28105, the K1 was faster to lock focus... (I was really astonished, I tried again and yes, in dim light, the K1 was faster to lock focus). I discussed with the seller, he proposed me to buy back my Pentax system and offer me a new mirrorless...($ony, he preferred because $Sony gives him extra money) well, after awhile I figured the trick... if I bought a mirrorless camera, meant a new lens mount, I'd also buy new lenses, so was the sales strategy. I said "nope" and went back home without spending a penny. Please go buy for yourself all the mirror-less of the world, if you like it. But no need to try to convince me to buy something that I don't need. The problem is not for us camera users, the problem to solve if for camera makers and camera business owners because the market for ILC is shrinking , so everyone is trying to sell the merits of mirrorless as a mean to generate revenues, and that is relayed by social networks. If someone has 6 grands to spend on multimedia, he could keep his current camera system and spent 3 grands on one of the best large 4K panel and still have 3 grands left for a nice summer vacation. Even an old Pentax K3 shoots fast and is better than what's require to display large over a large 4K OLED display. I know I know, $ony need money, but I'm not working for $ony and as a user I don't need a camera without the mirror.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-02-2018 at 08:44 PM.
05-03-2018, 12:20 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Are you trying to convince me? Peer pressure , as I said. I bought a K1 system 2 years ago, it works great, I won't buy another expensive system anytime soon, with or without mirrors, no matter how many people are trying to sell a mirrorless system to me. Recently, I went to a shop for a lens exchange (Pentax), but the seller show cased me some mirrorless cameras, I tried. When trying the mirrorless, I felt the tiny little grip and also feld pain in my eye from looking in the evf, and I compared AF to my K1 and 28105, the K1 was faster to lock focus... (I was really astonished, I tried again and yes, in dim light, the K1 was faster to lock focus). I discussed with the seller, he proposed me to buy back my Pentax system and offer me a new mirrorless...($ony, he preferred because $Sony gives him extra money) well, after awhile I figured the trick... if I bought a mirrorless camera, meant a new lens mount, I'd also buy new lenses, so was the sales strategy. I said "nope" and went back home without spending a penny. Please go buy for yourself all the mirror-less of the world, if you like it. But no need to try to convince me to buy something that I don't need. The problem is not for us camera users, the problem to solve if for camera makers and camera business owners because the market for ILC is shrinking , so everyone is trying to sell the merits of mirrorless as a mean to generate revenues, and that is relayed by social networks. If someone has 6 grands to spend on multimedia, he could keep his current camera system and spent 3 grands on one of the best large 4K panel and still have 3 grands left for a nice summer vacation. Even an old Pentax K3 shoots fast and is better than what's require to display large over a large 4K OLED display. I know I know, $ony need money, but I'm not working for $ony and as a user I don't need a camera without the mirror.
What goes well in Asia will swing where the R&D dollars are spent and over time that will impact what’s available in stores. There’s no point fighting this. It’s the way of the world over the next 25 years or so. Eventually that could mean no more cameras at all, at least as we now know them. Old men in the old West - and I count myself in that number, I hasten to add - are not the future of anything. In the meantime the mirrorless vs DSLR thang is mostly wild exaggeration. Both kinds will be around for a while yet. At the Wildlife Photographer of the Year 2018 expo here in London (fantastic, btw) at least 90 per cent of the final entries were taken using Canon or Nikon DSLRs. It’s a non-issue in my view.

In the meantime, sure, I’d like Pentax to do more with mirrorless. There’s nothing wrong with such an aspiration. Whether they eventually do or don’t (they’ve said no pro tem), whether it’s a good idea or a bad idea, whether it would make money or lose money - those are quite separate questions.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-03-2018 at 03:11 PM.
05-03-2018, 06:26 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
What goes well in Asia will swing where the R&D dollars are spent and over time that will impact whatís available in stores. Thereís no point fighting this. Itís the way of the world over the next 25 years or so. Eventually that could mean no more cameras at all, at least as we now know them. Old men in the old West - and I count myself in that number, I hasten to add - are not the future of anything. In the meantime the mirrorless vs DSLR thang is mostly wild exaggeration. Both kinds will be around for a while yet. At the Wildlife Photographer of the Year 2018 expo here in London (fantastic, btw) at least 90 per cent of the final entries were taken using Canon or Nikon DSLRs. Itís a non-issue in my view.

In the meantime, sure, Iíd Pentax to do more with mirrorless. Thereís nothing wrong with such an aspiration. Whether they eventually do or donít (theyíve said no pro tem), whether itís a good idea or a bad idea, whether it would make money or lose money - those are quite separate questions.
And meanwhile, the Asians are busily trying to make export products for the EU and US.

It's a global economy, no region is in control and there's lots people making lots of different products for lots of different other people.

The notion there's an "Asia" seems fundamentally wrong. Do the 1.4 billion potential photographers in China really want the same thing as the 1.3 billion potential photographers in India? And if you look at the sales figures, the tiny rapidly aging nation of Japan has the opposite sales pattern to the rest of Asia. Japan really loves compacts, then mirrorless, then DSLRs. Asia ranks it DSLR, then mirrorless, and then very few compacts.
05-03-2018, 06:48 AM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
And meanwhile, the Asians are busily trying to make export products for the EU and US.

It's a global economy, no region is in control and there's lots people making lots of different products for lots of different other people.

The notion there's an "Asia" seems fundamentally wrong. Do the 1.4 billion potential photographers in China really want the same thing as the 1.3 billion potential photographers in India? And if you look at the sales figures, the tiny rapidly aging nation of Japan has the opposite sales pattern to the rest of Asia. Japan really loves compacts, then mirrorless, then DSLRs. Asia ranks it DSLR, then mirrorless, and then very few compacts.
It's a label like any other. But the idea that the rising fortunes of countries - almost continents - like India, China and Indonesia with their huge populations and new middle classes will swing what happens in the camera market seems fundamentally right. For myself, I've heard quite enough of what old geezers like me in the old West want. I'm with the shock of the new. And if that new generation says we prefer DSLRs, in fact, grandad that's fine by me too (or smartphones, or compacts, or mirrorless or whatever else). I don't care. We'll see what they want, and chances are we won't have to wait very long. The next thing I'm hoping for is much more focus on the new generation of photographers from those places, and their work. It could well be enthralling. Time for the old US and European warhorses, their galleries and roadshows to move over. One of the problems with a lot of photography websites is that they focus on a fairly narrow range, often very Euro-US-centric, from the usual suspects. There's a far wider and more interesting world out there.

Last edited by mecrox; 05-03-2018 at 06:55 AM.
05-03-2018, 07:57 AM - 1 Like   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
It's a label like any other. But the idea that the rising fortunes of countries - almost continents - like India, China and Indonesia with their huge populations and new middle classes will swing what happens in the camera market seems fundamentally right. For myself, I've heard quite enough of what old geezers like me in the old West want. I'm with the shock of the new. And if that new generation says we prefer DSLRs, in fact, grandad that's fine by me too (or smartphones, or compacts, or mirrorless or whatever else). I don't care. We'll see what they want, and chances are we won't have to wait very long. The next thing I'm hoping for is much more focus on the new generation of photographers from those places, and their work. It could well be enthralling. Time for the old US and European warhorses, their galleries and roadshows to move over. One of the problems with a lot of photography websites is that they focus on a fairly narrow range, often very Euro-US-centric, from the usual suspects. There's a far wider and more interesting world out there.
Ironically, Asia seems to want a "Western" lifestyle so us geezers are still holding sway! Thus, we'll probably see a lot of big-camera-with-big-lens chest candy on newly affluent consumers over there.

But the pictures that the various Asians take will certainly not be "Western" if the other visual arts in these various countries are anything to go by. That will be truly interesting to see.

Whether anyone "needs move over" will depend on all the local galleries and country-to-country pairings. Will German art buyers want Indonesian photographs? Maybe, maybe not. Will Indian art buyers want Chinese photographs? Maybe, maybe not.
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