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05-03-2018, 01:56 PM   #31
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I remember when the first digital SLR's became available, a lot of 'serious' photographers rejected the idea, and wondered why 'serious' companies wasted energy in something that clearly could not compete with film camera's. Some went even that far that they didn't believe this would ever happen.
Now this landscape has changed dramatically, and (almost) no one will give that comment.
I believe the same will happen with mirrors and optical viewfinders. Not because they are better, or make the camera smaller, but in the end they will be cheaper to produce.
Personally, I am perfectly happy with the optical viewfinder in my Pentax K-S2, but the speed that things are changing made me wonder if my next Pentax (in more that a few years I hope) would be mirrorless? I certainly need it to support my old glass.

But Ricoh did not put it on the roadmap just yet, so it may be that in a couple of years Pentax will be the nr. 1 DSLR brand in numbers - as Nikon & Canon have shifted to mirrorless....

05-03-2018, 02:48 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter van Baarle Quote
But Ricoh did not put it on the roadmap just yet, so it may be that in a couple of years Pentax will be the nr. 1 DSLR brand in numbers - as Nikon & Canon have shifted to mirrorless


It will be interesting to see the Pentax brand on top of the SLR style cameras again, it wont happen soon but 1:1 sales will happen soon enough between Dslr and M/L.I'll guess around end of 2020.

Pentax can be yesterdays hero,traditionalists will keep the brand afloat(or maybe thats happening now?)
05-03-2018, 03:01 PM   #33
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There are several comments here that are worth further consideration. However, the one to get my attention is the notion that younger people are attracted to smaller, more compact devices of all types is true to a limited extent, but I suspect it’s largely confined to the late so-called Gen-Y and Millenial demographics. What I see in the Gen-X group is quite the reverse, particularly when I look at the drivers of large, expensive (mostly German) SUVs, who live in equally large and expensive houses. Who’s got the spending power between those three? Most commentary here is from people (like me) who are in the so-called Post-War Baby Boom generation (the last to be named after a demographic phenomenon, rather than a marketing opportunity, BTW). While we have some residual spending power, it’s our children, not our grandchildren who are the ones in Western markets who’ll determine camera sales there for the next twenty years. As for Asian buyers, I think it’s fairly clear that China is the determining market, and my (admittedly limited) experience there tells me size is pretty important to those with economic power, as a form of wealth display. We’re back to Veblen goods, I know, but poor people can often afford a smart phone, and who wants to look poor, aside from Issie Miyaki fans?
05-03-2018, 08:10 PM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter van Baarle Quote
Not because they are better, or make the camera smaller, but in the end they will be cheaper to produce.
That is a good point, electronics is cheap to produce. But whether companies will pass that saving to consumer is an another thing

05-03-2018, 10:14 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter van Baarle Quote
I remember when the first digital SLR's became available, a lot of 'serious' photographers rejected the idea, and wondered why 'serious' companies wasted energy in something that clearly could not compete with film camera's. Some went even that far that they didn't believe this would ever happen.
Actually, some of the world most famous art photographers still shoot medium / large format film , and Fuji included film emulation in the cameras and that is why they are praised by many. For many years, digital cameras have been delivering inferior images, but used because of easy of development compared to film, and this is still the situation today. Lazyness and versatility won over the quality of aesthetics. Mirrorless is like accidents of nuclear power plants and global warming. We know it's bad, but the business logic is such that we can't stop it: in that case, the balance of bargaining power is easy to figure: there are two large companies molding the wants of the mass market via consumer mass media techniques. If we look at how camera are being sold on videos, it is fully of emptiness with regards to addressing the real concerns of photographers, those cameras are sold by very enthusiastic folks who say 100 times "this camera is great, this is great, this time they nailed it, wow I'm so glad to review this camera today", bla bla bla... positive attitude with empty content.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-03-2018 at 10:34 PM.
05-04-2018, 01:03 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Lazyness and versatility won over the quality of aesthetics. .
I think PP tools have put Lazyness on steroid. The reason I am bringing in PP is, I think the life cycle of photo includes both capturing and post-processing. I expect people to take traditional approach towards both, but that is not the case always. Oh I know people are not perfect .
05-04-2018, 02:02 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Fuji included film emulation
Wheres that in the Fuji menu?
05-04-2018, 02:23 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Actually, some of the world most famous art photographers still shoot medium / large format film , and Fuji included film emulation in the cameras and that is why they are praised by many.
What makes a photographer famous is most often not the gear, but the result. Some of the most iconic photographs are far from perfect from a technical perspective, but can be spectacular in other respects.

There will always be people sticking to old technology for whatever reason. Imho this is often driven by emotion. Other examples are tube amplifiers in hifi, or vinyl records. Some say they sound better, others disagree, or can't be bothered.

05-04-2018, 04:06 AM - 2 Likes   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Actually, some of the world most famous art photographers still shoot medium / large format film , and Fuji included film emulation in the cameras and that is why they are praised by many.
Part of the reason is that larger formats simply have different optical characteristics, and you just can't get digital sensors in those sizes. I'm sure if somebody could invent a 4x5 digital sensor that didn't cost a fortune, it would be well received.

QuoteQuote:
For many years, digital cameras have been delivering inferior images, but used because of easy of development compared to film, and this is still the situation today. Lazyness and versatility won over the quality of aesthetics.
That I have to question. A while back I did an experiment where I made a series of comparison shots between my Sony A7 and my Fuji GW690 III loaded with Kodak Portra 160. To make the story short, the results were visually quite similar, despite the film frame being dimensionally twice the size (and four times the area!) of the digital sensor. The digital photos did suffer some moire and color artifacts that were not apparent in the film photos, but otherwise the differences were subtle. And of course, the Sony is easily superior on all other practical concerns of size, versatility, economics, etc.

QuoteQuote:
Mirrorless is like accidents of nuclear power plants and global warming.
uhh… Mirrorless is like nuclear power plants in what way now? Something the world desperately needs but is being held back by unreasoning fear?

QuoteQuote:
If we look at how camera are being sold on videos, it is fully of emptiness with regards to addressing the real concerns of photographers, those cameras are sold by very enthusiastic folks who say 100 times "this camera is great, this is great, this time they nailed it, wow I'm so glad to review this camera today", bla bla bla... positive attitude with empty content.
That, unfortunately, is YouTube SOP for any product. It's not just cameras.
05-04-2018, 05:50 AM   #40
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I've owned quite a few mirrored and mirrorless cameras. The optical view option has been better on the nicer SLR's digital or film. However the better EVF's offer some interesting advantage of their own including focus peaking or magnified manual focus in the viewfinder.
I still find optical less fatiguing and more natural, but I don't find EVF hard to use or annoying enough to derail my using them.
05-04-2018, 05:53 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter van Baarle Quote
There will always be people sticking to old technology for whatever reason. Imho this is often driven by emotion. Other examples are tube amplifiers in hifi, or vinyl records. Some say they sound better, others disagree, or can't be bothered.

In other words: whatever main stream opinion is, that's probably right. I am not interested in why others beg the differ. They are probably wrong.
05-04-2018, 07:54 AM   #42
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My final images are better, in my opinion (using my personal standard of ‘Good’) when I look through a viewfinder rather than at a viewfinder. The technology “helps” - to a great degree - merely allow new, less experienced or never-instructed photographers* to shorten the necessary practice period learning how to control a camera. That has value for some camera buyers, but not for me.

However, If someone could come up with a corollary replacement for analog golf clubs I’d be very open to spending money on it.


* Note that the UK is replacing traditional round clocks with digital displays because current students cannot tell time using analog clocks. They were never taught how a round clock displays time.
05-04-2018, 08:53 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter van Baarle Quote
There will always be people sticking to old technology for whatever reason. Imho this is often driven by emotion. Other examples are tube amplifiers in hifi, or vinyl records. Some say they sound better, others disagree, or can't be bothered.
Exactly!

I'm amused how people stick to the old mirrorless design now that we have pentaprisms and mirrors to deliver a clear optical view of what the lens sees rather than a view degraded by the limitations of the EVF display, computer processing, and sensor.
05-04-2018, 10:11 AM   #44
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Certainly the pentaprism in my K-S2 was very nice, especially outdoors on bright, sunny days when an EVF was at its weakest (and an LCD is even worse). However, there’s something I feel gets overlooked too often in the optical-vs-EVF debate…

When I got my first film SLR, it was a revelation. Every camera I had used before that had an optical viewfinder, but none of them had ever given me a view through the taking lens. There was no more trying to estimate the distance and turn a numbered dial to match my guess. Now I could see exactly what I was doing when I focused it, and I had a split prism aid that was like magic. I had a preview lever for the aperture, so I could see the depth of field (if there's enough light, haha!). If I put a filter on the lens, I could see through the filter. If I zoomed or changed lenses, I could see the exact effect of that, not an approximation with some etched lines. It was fantastic.

Using an EVF is just like that—only more so! Now I see exactly what the sensor sees, and more. I also see a preview of what the JPEG engine is going to do with that image, based on my current settings. I see the exposure. I can see the focal depth, continuously. I see the color rendering. If I'm shooting black and white, I can compose in black and white. If I want to crop to 1:1 or 16:9, I can see that in the EVF too. I also have "magical" focus aids more effective than the old split prism. This is the kind of experience that originally fueled the popularity of 35mm SLRs, but taken to a much higher level. It's the kind of thing we would have killed for back then.
05-04-2018, 10:59 AM   #45
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Actually, the EVF does NOT see what the sensor sees. The EVF shows a lagged, clipped, low-dynamic range, low-resolution, color-adjusted version of what the sensor outputs (which is not what the sensors sees). Worse, the sensor only outputs a lagged, clipped, low-DR version of the scene.

I've used both EVF and OVF. Both have advantages and both have disadvantages.

The sales figures show that only one country prefers mirrorless to DSLR and that's Japan. But then Japan is an odd-ball in that they are the only country that prefers compact cameras to interchangeable lens cameras.
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