[Tony Belding]

As monochrome seemed to be responding to my post calling for a Pentax mirrorless APS-C camera (and pointing to the K-01 as such a beastie), I was simply pointing out that calling the K-01 a mirrorless camera was essentially calling any camera without a mirror mirrorless.

Hope I've clarified this.

Well, it needs to have interchangeable lenses. That's implied. MILC = Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera. And yes, the K-01 is a MILC, and so is the whole Pentax Q series. They were perfectly valid entries in that category.

The real problem from my standpoint is that they were MILC but not EVIL: Electronic Viewfinder, Interchangeable Lens. For some reason Pentax seems highly averse to EVFs. About the same time as the Q and the K-01, Olympus were putting out the OM-D E-M5 and showing the way for the whole rest of the industry (except, seemingly, Pentax!) to follow.

[monochrome]

As monochrome seemed to be responding to my post calling for a Pentax mirrorless APS-C camera (and pointing to the K-01 as such a beastie), I was simply pointing out that calling the K-01 a mirrorless camera was essentially calling any camera without a mirror mirrorless.

Hope I've clarified this.

UHMMM, looking at my K-01 I don’t see a mirror but since I don’t see an EVF I guess that means a K-01 isn’t a mirrorless camera. It does have a K-mount, which seems to negate most of the supposed benefits of MILC’s though. There will never be a Pentax EVF mirrorless camera.

[luftfluss]

As monochrome seemed to be responding to my post calling for a Pentax mirrorless APS-C camera (and pointing to the K-01 as such a beastie), I was simply pointing out that calling the K-01 a mirrorless camera was essentially calling any camera without a mirror mirrorless.

Hope I've clarified this.

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, the K-01 is old and not available for purchase new, but it really is enjoyable to use with legacy glass and fairly small modern lenses like the Limiteds.

I know that for many folks the term "mirrorless" carries implications other than merely lacking a mirror. "Small" is often associated with "mirrorless", although Olympus with the E-M1 mk2 and later flagships, and Fuji with the X-H1 seem to have gone against the grain there. In time we may associate "computational photography" with mirrorless, also.


BTW, a few months ago Fuji released the X-A7, an APS-C MILC that lacks an EVF.

[climbmountainway]

I wonder why Pentax has not yet jumped the mirrorless bandwagon (or rather, jumped off after the K01), I feel they are digging their own grave...

CP+ 2018 interviews: The reign of the DSLR is almost over...: Digital Photography Review

It is obvious really. PK systems are hardly selling, and the new mirrorless cameras do not have a mirror box lens mount to sensor flange distance of a K MOUNT DSLR. This makes their products less bulky, lighter, and readily available for video follow focus silent motor constant aperture uses. Richo Pentax would have to design and come up with a whole new lens line, mount, and up to date technology body when its DSLR marketplace share is already minimal. Look at the tens of thousands of K Mount lenses for sale on ebay, their prices, and all those owners jumping ship.

[Serkevan]

As monochrome seemed to be responding to my post calling for a Pentax mirrorless APS-C camera (and pointing to the K-01 as such a beastie), I was simply pointing out that calling the K-01 a mirrorless camera was essentially calling any camera without a mirror mirrorless.

Hope I've clarified this.

Well yeah, that's what they are. DSLRs without mirror.

---------- Post added 04-02-20 at 12:33 AM ----------

It is obvious really. PK systems are hardly selling, and the new mirrorless cameras do not have a mirror box lens mount to sensor flange distance of a K MOUNT DSLR. This makes their products less bulky, lighter, and readily available for video follow focus silent motor constant aperture uses. Richo Pentax would have to design and come up with a whole new lens line, mount, and up to date technology body when its DSLR marketplace share is already minimal. Look at the tens of thousands of K Mount lenses for sale on ebay, their prices, and all those owners jumping ship.

*All* cameras are hardly selling.

[Dan Rentea]

If you ask me, if changing systems doesn't imply spending a lot of money, which is and isn't true, depending on lots of things, it all comes to EVF. I'm one of the guys with headaches from EVFs and it took me a while to adapt to EVFs. I started to play with mirrorless cameras early, when the A6000 was released and with each generation of mirrorless, EVFs improved up to the point that now I'm 97% ok with EVFs. The only mirrorless manufacturer that is behind in terms of EVFs is Olympus.

Aside the fact that I was playing for a few years with mirrorless cameras from different manufacturers, shooting side by side with a mirrorless and a DSLR that have quite similar specs for 6 months already, I realized that my DSLR stays home 90% of the time. And it doesn't stay home because it doesn't do a good job because it does an excelent job each time I grab it, but since I shoot quite a lot wide open with fast lenses, it's easier to work with mirrorless for 2 reasons:
1. Eye af
2. I don't have to focus and recompose which is tricky at f1.4 with people that don't stay still

Despite the fact that the weight difference isn't much between my 2 cameras, the size of the mirrorless it's less eye catching for people at corporate events who are still used to big and bulky cameras of photographers, with flash on top.

If I were a guy shooting lanscape or stodio, live view of DSLRs would have been the mirrorless option and I wouldn't be that much interested in mirrorless...

Mirrorless seems to pack more features in their cameras: focus stalking, eye af, pixel shift, both silent and normal shutter, better video, etc. Looking at 1Dx Mark III for example, it seems a little better (just a little) at tracking in live view due to eye af and larger Af area selection. This makes me think that DSLRs won't have much of a life in the next years, at least when comes to the 2 big DSLR manufacturers (Canon and Nikon). They will most likely release 5D Mark V and D860 due to the still very large user base of DSLR shooters. But 5D Mark V will have to be very solid to beat EOS R5 specs for example and shift the attention of users from mirrorless to DSLR.

At this point, I really don't know which approach would be good for Pentax. Focusing on DSLR means that probably they will remain alone in DSLR market after Canon and Nikon will concentrate more and more on mirrorless and "force" their users to switch to mirrorless. This can be good or bad for Ricoh... Good because of the people who want OVF in their cameras with all costs based on the current EVF options in other manufacturer cameras and bad because we don't know how EVFs will look like in the next 5-7 years (the improvements from Sony A7 to Sony A7R IV in terms of EVFs are huge) and because Ricoh isn't known for marketing their cameras either. And then comes lenses... Now there are quite a little modern Pentax lenses to attract Canon and Nikon users, at least the ones used to shoot with D850/5D Mark IV cameras and G/L lenses. The f2.8 trinity of Pentax lenses are already 5 years old. In 6 years these lenses will be 11 years old and will have to compete with newer and newer mirrorless lenses...

There are a lot of things that can go wrong or good for Ricoh no matter the path they choose: mirrorless or DSLR. The important thing is to remain in the market and not because of competition but because of photographers having more choices.

[Serkevan]

But 5D Mark V will have to be very solid to beat EOS R5 specs for example and shift the attention of users from mirrorless to DSLR.

There are a lot of things that can go wrong or good for Ricoh no matter the path they choose: mirrorless or DSLR. The important thing is to remain in the market and not because of competition but because of photographers having more choices.

That's the thing; Canon won't want to shift attention. It's objectively better for them to convert all the EF mount users to RF - the question is how to go about it without disgruntling people à la FD situation. If I were to be asked for my opinion (and please realized it's being pulled straight out of my backside) I'd say that a 5D MkV would be about as good as the R5, probably the same sensor and live-view behaviour as the MILC, with autofocus taking notes from the 1D series and improved metering sensor for OVF face detection. Read: the 90D-M6ii duality again. Or the Z6-D780 situation with Nikon. All in all, very solid cameras and an enticing proposition for current users, but not strictly better in order to avoid MILC users backtracking to DSRLs.


About Ricoh, I agree that it will come down to what users decide. If we collectively decide to be content with their - so far, excellent IMHO - equipment even if it's not a breakneck race to more and more perfect(er) optical designs and feature creep, they will be fine. If we don't, weeeeeell...

[Jonathan Mac]

The K-01 is a mirrorless camera, though not one that fits into the "spirit" of mirrorless cameras. Having a viewfinder or not is completely irrelevant, plenty of mirrorless cameras lack viewfinders (usually the ones lower down the range), such as my Fujifilm X-M1.

I agree that Pentax could do well in the L-mount alliance, maybe even without any changes to their existing ranges. All they'd need to do is design and build some unique primes for the system: lenses that no other manufacturer would do. How about a trio of HD L-DFA Limited primes? All metal, reasonably fast, compact and with high quality optics. (And not just existing designs with an extension tube slapped on them and an AF motor added).

[Dan Rentea]

That's the thing; Canon won't want to shift attention. It's objectively better for them to convert all the EF mount users to RF - the question is how to go about it without disgruntling people à la FD situation. If I were to be asked for my opinion (and please realized it's being pulled straight out of my backside) I'd say that a 5D MkV would be about as good as the R5, probably the same sensor and live-view behaviour as the MILC, with autofocus taking notes from the 1D series and improved metering sensor for OVF face detection. Read: the 90D-M6ii duality again. Or the Z6-D780 situation with Nikon. All in all, very solid cameras and an enticing proposition for current users, but not strictly better in order to avoid MILC users backtracking to DSRLs.


About Ricoh, I agree that it will come down to what users decide. If we collectively decide to be content with their - so far, excellent IMHO - equipment even if it's not a breakneck race to more and more perfect(er) optical designs and feature creep, they will be fine. If we don't, weeeeeell...

Talking to some sales representatives from photo stores, in Romania for example M6 Mark II outperform 90D to about 55% to 45% in terms of sales. This is interesting mostly because M line has even less quality lenses than Pentax and it can't use RF lenses either. When comes to 6D Mark II vs. EOS RP, the sales are even more favorable to RP.

Also Z6 outperform D780 in terms of sales (in Romania) to about 68% to 32%, mostly because Z6 is cheaper and also because D750 it's still available on stores. D750 costs 1130$, D780 costs 2580$ and Z6 costs 1995$ with adapter included.

I don't know how is the situation in other countries, but in my country it seems that mirrorless tend to be more attractive to photographers, looking also at Fuji, Sony and Olympus sales.

I don't think that 5D Mark V will have the same capabilities as R5 because:
1. Canon probably won't want to hurt R5 sales and the transition to mirrorless at the same time
2. 5D Mark V won't be able to track as R5 which has animal eye af and animal body recognition (dogs, cats and birds for now), has the af area covering 90% of the sensor also.

This is just guessing, nothing more...

I can't wait to see if the new Pentax APS-C will give us some hints in terms of live view performance, like Canon did with 1Dx Mark III. Then we can speculate more about Pentax mirrorless based on live view performance.

[Serkevan]

Talking to some sales representatives from photo stores, in Romania for example M6 Mark II outperform 90D to about 55% to 45% in terms of sales. This is interesting mostly because M line has even less quality lenses than Pentax and it can't use RF lenses either. When comes to 6D Mark II vs. EOS RP, the sales are even more favorable to RP.

Also Z6 outperform D780 in terms of sales (in Romania) to about 68% to 32%, mostly because Z6 is cheaper and also because D750 it's still available on stores. D750 costs 1130$, D780 costs 2580$ and Z6 costs 1995$ with adapter included.

I don't know how is the situation in other countries, but in my country it seems that mirrorless tend to be more attractive to photographers, looking also at Fuji, Sony and Olympus sales.

I don't think that 5D Mark V will have the same capabilities as R5 because:
1. Canon probably won't want to hurt R5 sales and the transition to mirrorless at the same time
2. 5D Mark V won't be able to track as R5 which has animal eye af and animal body recognition (dogs, cats and birds for now), has the af area covering 90% of the sensor also.

This is just guessing, nothing more...

I can't wait to see if the new Pentax APS-C will give us some hints in terms of live view performance, like Canon did with 1Dx Mark III. Then we can speculate more about Pentax mirrorless based on live view performance.

I think it will be able to track as well... in LV mode. I suppose they'll pull a Nikon (or a "themselves"? does the D90 track in LV like the M6ii?) with the D780 having the on-sensor PDAF of the Z6.

Most people, I think, who buy cameras want "a" camera that takes decent photos - that's why an overwhelming majority will get some entry level thingy from their closest marketing department store. Lately, that's mostly mirrorless offerings.

I'm also very interested in the K-new, hopefully it will have a lot of juicy improvements.

[Dan Rentea]

I think it will be able to track as well... in LV mode.

Yes, but it's not as comfortable as shooting through viewfinder. Not to mention how difficult it will be to use even a good high resolution LCD in bright conditions.

does the D90 track in LV like the M6ii?

They have pretty much the same performance in live view, with 90D having the advantage of the viewfinder built in, which M6 Mark II doesn't have. On paper 90D should win in terms of: lenses available, built in viewfinder, faster shutter speed (1/8000s vs 1/4000s). Yet, people in Romania tend to buy the M6 Mark II more. I think the size and the small dedicated lenses are better (suited) for the ones who travel or vlog. And it's also cheaper.

5D Mark IV in live view is also very close to EOS R in terms of performance. Yet, for me in the last 6 months EOS R is the camera I grab most of the time because I get the job faster with it. Again, this is subjective from person to person and based on individual needs.

I'm also very interested in the K-new, hopefully it will have a lot of juicy improvements.

It depends also when the development started, which Sony sensor they used, what processor improvements Ricoh made, etc. The joystick to me it's a sign that Ricoh tried to work on Af (more than 50 af points that will be easier to select by using joystick, more sensitive af points, possible dual cross type af points...).

From a user perspective, Pentax joining mirrorless can't be a bad thing. On the contrary, it will give more options to Pentaxians. From a business perspective, only Ricoh can tell if mirrorless worth the trouble or not for them.

[pres589]

There will never be a Pentax EVF mirrorless camera.

Why would you say that? Absolutes are silly and this is just branding anyway.

[Rondec]

Why would you say that? Absolutes are silly and this is just branding anyway.

I think odds are good that Ricoh would release any MILC products as Ricoh brand, particularly as it seems they are disinclined to release another K mount mirrorless.

[Serkevan]

Yes, but it's not as comfortable as shooting through viewfinder. Not to mention how difficult it will be to use even a good high resolution LCD in bright conditions.



They have pretty much the same performance in live view, with 90D having the advantage of the viewfinder built in, which M6 Mark II doesn't have. On paper 90D should win in terms of: lenses available, built in viewfinder, faster shutter speed (1/8000s vs 1/4000s). Yet, people in Romania tend to buy the M6 Mark II more. I think the size and the small dedicated lenses are better (suited) for the ones who travel or vlog. And it's also cheaper.

5D Mark IV in live view is also very close to EOS R in terms of performance. Yet, for me in the last 6 months EOS R is the camera I grab most of the time because I get the job faster with it. Again, this is subjective from person to person and based on individual needs.



It depends also when the development started, which Sony sensor they used, what processor improvements Ricoh made, etc. The joystick to me it's a sign that Ricoh tried to work on Af (more than 50 af points that will be easier to select by using joystick, more sensitive af points, possible dual cross type af points...).

From a user perspective, Pentax joining mirrorless can't be a bad thing. On the contrary, it will give more options to Pentaxians. From a business perspective, only Ricoh can tell if mirrorless worth the trouble or not for them.

Of course! That's the idea, right? You technically give the DSLR the same performance but put it in the "mirrorless" mode where use is inconvenient and against the main reason you got a DSLR in the first place, while putting less effort in the OVF modules. Nudge nudge get our MILCs wink wink. The cherry on top is that now that you have on-sensor PDAF you have to eat the IQ loss (small as it may be) from covering the sensor. At least Pentax avoids doing that; while I use LV often for many city and landscape photos (the cross-tilt screen is pure genius), I don't use it for focus, I use it for precise composition adjustments, so I don't need more than CDAF (which I don't even use, 99% of the time I use manual focus).

[EDstrg87]

"Small" is often associated with "mirrorless", although Olympus with the E-M1 mk2 and later flagships, and Fuji with the X-H1 seem to have gone against the grain there

for me, fuji X-H1 is what a mirrorless K3 would be: not so compact, well balanced with tele lenses and a very good EVF.

in this months i've used a fuji xt1 with a simple K To fujiX adapter and well.. my k3 is, sadly, in a drawer since november..

From a user perspective, Pentax joining mirrorless can't be a bad thing. On the contrary, it will give more options to Pentaxians.

maybe pentax would get some new customers..