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04-02-2020, 10:21 AM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think odds are good that Ricoh would release any MILC products as Ricoh brand, particularly as it seems they are disinclined to release another K mount mirrorless.
Perhaps. But Ricoh doesn't seem to have a strong history of releasing interchangable lens cameras in the digital era (I write this at a table with a Ricoh 35mm SLR sitting on it, so I'm somewhat aware of their history with film & the k mount). An effort to make a mirrorless Pentax camera like the Canons, with a mount adapter so old glass works on it, wouldn't shock me too much. The shocking part would be the green light to do so; Ricoh doesn't seem to want to move fast on anything, glass or bodies, these days. They weren't inclined to work on the k-new, either, until the user base pitched a fit at the KP being the top APS-C body. A couple of years from now, who knows.

04-02-2020, 03:07 PM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Why would you say that? Absolutes are silly and this is just branding anyway.
There might be a Ricoh MILC, but not a Pentax.
04-02-2020, 04:01 PM   #243
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I still don't understand why you're so certain of that but whatever.
04-02-2020, 07:37 PM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I still don't understand why you're so certain of that but whatever.
By their own public statements Pentax is the DSLR brand and Ricoh is the new technology brand.

Besides - the likelihood Ricoh Corp would allocate the capital to develop a new mount and a complete suite of lenses - well, it is non-zero, but certainly quite unlikely.. And the whole K-Mount adapter thing won’t help. Why wouldn’t I just buy a known product and an adapter for K-mount lenses?

04-02-2020, 11:06 PM   #245
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The EVF issue will be less and less important, peole can use smartphone (~60Hz) then they can use Evf/Liveview and I myself prefer the liveview for bigger screen, longer eye-screen distance.
Milc will be cheaper as they are mainly electronic parts and those parts are getting cheaper and cheaper (see the cheap 100$-200$ smartphone market righht now).
People from Canikon will jump ship (not changing brand but to Milc) and the market will be flooded with second hand flagship (Canon 5D series, Nikon 8xx series) at cheap price, Pentax will have a hard time competing with those when releasing a new Dslr (even worse if it's an Apsc one).
Ricoh/Pentax will have to think of a plan to deal with this new change !

Last edited by redcat; 04-03-2020 at 04:17 AM.
04-03-2020, 12:54 AM - 1 Like   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
The EVF issue will be less and less important, peole can use smartphone (~60Hz) then they can use Evf/Liveview and I myself prefer the liveview for bigger screen, longer eye-screen distance.
Milc will be cheaper as they are mainly electronic parts and those parts is getting cheaper and cheaper (see the cheap 100$-200$ smartphone market righht now).
People from Canikon will jump ship (not changing brand but to Milc) and the market will be flooded with second hand flagship (Canon 5D series, Nikon 8xx series) at cheap price, Pentax will have a hard time competing with those when releasing a new Dslr (even worse if it's an Apsc one).
Ricoh/Pentax will have to think of a plan to deal with this new change !
These are your personal predictions, of course, and not - with respect - statements of fact. They're no less valid for that - but many folks will disagree with you, in whole or part

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-03-2020 at 01:42 AM.
04-03-2020, 01:37 AM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
The EVF issue will be less and less important, peole can use smartphone (~60Hz) then they can use Evf/Liveview and I myself prefer the liveview for bigger screen, longer eye-screen distance.
Milc will be cheaper as they are mainly electronic parts and those parts is getting cheaper and cheaper (see the cheap 100$-200$ smartphone market righht now).
People from Canikon will jump ship (not changing brand but to Milc) and the market will be flooded with second hand flagship (Canon 5D series, Nikon 8xx series) at cheap price, Pentax will have a hard time competing with those when releasing a new Dslr (even worse if it's an Apsc one).
Ricoh/Pentax will have to think of a plan to deal with this new change !
No, I can use a smartphone and an EVF is *terrible* in comparison. Not that I would use a smartphone for anything more than mindless snapshots, either, ergonomics are terrible.

MILCs won't be cheaper. Every Sony/Fuji/Olympus new model has had an equal or higher MSRP than the previous one, for the last 5 years. That's not a prediction, it's wishful thinking.

The market is already flooded with older Canikon flagships, and a Canon 5D3 is about as expensive than a K-1(which is lol since the Pentax stomps it).

04-03-2020, 02:48 AM - 1 Like   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
No, I can use a smartphone and an EVF is *terrible* in comparison. Not that I would use a smartphone for anything more than mindless snapshots, either, ergonomics are terrible.
The EVF from Panasonic S1 it's quite similar to OVF experience due to 5.76 million dots and 120 fps refresh rate which kind of "removes" the small TV kind of experience when looking through it. The refresh rate of 60fps and 3.69 milion dots EVFs (not to mention the lower resolution EVFs from A7 II, E-M1X, etc.) gives headaches to some people when panning/tracking. The improvements in EVFs department makes me believe that the next generation of cameras (given the competition between Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Fuji) will pretty much solve this problem also.

A lot of people tried older cameras like Sony A7 II, Fuji X-T1, Olympus E-M1 (or even A7 III, EOS R) and given the bad experience with EVF in their mind there is this conclusion that EVFs are bad. They were and still are in lots of mirrorless cameras, but the difference in terms of EVF experience between cameras with 60fps vs cameras with higher resolution and 120fps refresh rate is quite visible and I tested it among some of my friends. That's why I think that starting with the upcoming Sony A7 IV, EOS R5 that will have high resolution EVFs with high refresh rate, the EVF problem will start to be less and less a solid argument and in 4-5 years when the next generation will be released this EVF problem that now exist (it's real because I had it) will probably be gone for good.

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The market is already flooded with older Canikon flagships, and a Canon 5D3 is about as expensive than a K-1(which is lol since the Pentax stomps it).
K1 in the romanian second hand market has prices between 1650$ and 1750$ and there are only 3 for sale in the most known second hand online website. Given the fact that these prices are close to the price from Pentax official store, you can probably use this info and negotiate the price of a second hand K1 from 1650$ to 1550$. D850 in the same market sells for 1750$-1850$. 5D Mark IV sells for prices between 1500$ and 1750$. That's the second market in which K1 has to deal with here, in Romania, unfortunatelly. I don't know the situations in other countries, but in Romania it's hard to find solid reasons to buy a second hand K1 due to above prices and due to non existent second hand market in terms of lenses while for Nikon and Canon there are amazing offers for DSLR lenses since Nikon and Canon released mirrorless cameras.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 04-03-2020 at 03:01 AM.
04-03-2020, 03:00 AM - 1 Like   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
No, I can use a smartphone and an EVF is *terrible* in comparison. Not that I would use a smartphone for anything more than mindless snapshots, either, ergonomics are terrible.

MILCs won't be cheaper. Every Sony/Fuji/Olympus new model has had an equal or higher MSRP than the previous one, for the last 5 years. That's not a prediction, it's wishful thinking.

The market is already flooded with older Canikon flagships, and a Canon 5D3 is about as expensive than a K-1(which is lol since the Pentax stomps it).
Exactly. There is absolutely no indication that MILCs are cheaper than SLRs. There might be more profit per unit for the companies making them, but that certainly isn't passed along to the customers.

The reality is that every brand is trying to go upscale. If you can figure out how to sell a micro four thirds camera for 2600 dollars, that's what you do if you are Olympus.

Beyond all that, the only feature that I have seen that MILCs can do that SLRs don't do through the viewfinder (that I'm interested in) is eye AF. All of the rest of it is unnecessary clutter and features that may look great on a spreadsheet, but isn't something that I particularly want to use in real life shooting.
04-03-2020, 03:20 AM - 1 Like   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Exactly. There is absolutely no indication that MILCs are cheaper than SLRs. There might be more profit per unit for the companies making them, but that certainly isn't passed along to the customers.
Sony had cheaper cameras than DSLRs equivalents (with more expensive lenses). Fuji had lower prices than Nikon and Canon APS-C cameras also, even if the difference was 5%-7% in favor of mirrorless. EOS RP beats 6D Mark II on pretty much every aspect, including price. EOS R is basically a 5D Mark IV with just one memory card slot and 1000$ cheaper. For some mirrorless models we have some lower prices than the equivalent DSLRs, but I expect the pro version of Canon and Nikon to be priced similar to their DSLR equivalents.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The reality is that every brand is trying to go upscale. If you can figure out how to sell a micro four thirds camera for 2600 dollars, that's what you do if you are Olympus.
The prices tend to be higher for lenses if I look at the general market and less or equal for bodies.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Beyond all that, the only feature that I have seen that MILCs can do that SLRs don't do through the viewfinder (that I'm interested in) is eye AF. All of the rest of it is unnecessary clutter and features that may look great on a spreadsheet, but isn't something that I particularly want to use in real life shooting.
The silent shutter is also a very nice feature, depending also on what you shoot. And a very nice feature that would be great if implemented in DSLRs is touch and drag af. This feature and the eye af feature are the things that I tend to miss the most when I shoot with 5D Mark IV. The joystick from 5D seems so slow once I got used to touch af... Again, it all depends on what we shoot.
04-03-2020, 03:24 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Sony had cheaper cameras than DSLRs equivalents (with more expensive lenses). Fuji had lower prices than Nikon and Canon APS-C cameras also, even if the difference was 5%-7% in favor of mirrorless. EOS RP beats 6D Mark II on pretty much every aspect, including price. EOS R is basically a 5D Mark IV with just one memory card slot and 1000$ cheaper. For some mirrorless models we have some lower prices than the equivalent DSLRs, but I expect the pro version of Canon and Nikon to be priced similar to their DSLR equivalents.



The prices tend to be higher for lenses if I look at the general market and less or equal for bodies.



The silent shutter is also a very nice feature, depending also on what you shoot. And a very nice feature that would be great if implemented in DSLRs is touch and drag af. This feature and the eye af feature are the things that I tend to miss the most when I shoot with 5D Mark IV. The joystick from 5D seems so slow once I got used to touch af... Again, it all depends on what we shoot.
I was speaking for myself and I shoot mainly landscapes and photos of my kids and neither one requires a silent shutter.
04-03-2020, 03:31 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I was speaking for myself and I shoot mainly landscapes and photos of my kids and neither one requires a silent shutter.
I know, that's why I said that it depends on what we shoot. For landscape you would probably want in a new DSLR the focus stalking feature. I have a collaboration with a dentist and I photograph for him implant guided surgeries and the focus stalking from EOS RP would have been a very nice feature on both 5D and EOS R.
04-03-2020, 05:00 AM - 1 Like   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
The EVF from Panasonic S1 it's quite similar to OVF experience due to 5.76 million dots and 120 fps refresh rate which kind of "removes" the small TV kind of experience when looking through it. The refresh rate of 60fps and 3.69 milion dots EVFs (not to mention the lower resolution EVFs from A7 II, E-M1X, etc.) gives headaches to some people when panning/tracking. The improvements in EVFs department makes me believe that the next generation of cameras (given the competition between Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sony, Fuji) will pretty much solve this problem also.

A lot of people tried older cameras like Sony A7 II, Fuji X-T1, Olympus E-M1 (or even A7 III, EOS R) and given the bad experience with EVF in their mind there is this conclusion that EVFs are bad. They were and still are in lots of mirrorless cameras, but the difference in terms of EVF experience between cameras with 60fps vs cameras with higher resolution and 120fps refresh rate is quite visible and I tested it among some of my friends. That's why I think that starting with the upcoming Sony A7 IV, EOS R5 that will have high resolution EVFs with high refresh rate, the EVF problem will start to be less and less a solid argument and in 4-5 years when the next generation will be released this EVF problem that now exist (it's real because I had it) will probably be gone for good.
I admit that I haven't tried the 5.76 MDot EVFs, but I did try the 3.69 MDot ones and those were unacceptably bad - for me at least. The high refresh rate, high resolution EVFs will inevitably come with extra battery drain however, no? A DSLR will generally always be a better hiking camera, IMO.


QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
K1 in the romanian second hand market has prices between 1650$ and 1750$ and there are only 3 for sale in the most known second hand online website. Given the fact that these prices are close to the price from Pentax official store, you can probably use this info and negotiate the price of a second hand K1 from 1650$ to 1550$. D850 in the same market sells for 1750$-1850$. 5D Mark IV sells for prices between 1500$ and 1750$. That's the second market in which K1 has to deal with here, in Romania, unfortunatelly. I don't know the situations in other countries, but in Romania it's hard to find solid reasons to buy a second hand K1 due to above prices and due to non existent second hand market in terms of lenses while for Nikon and Canon there are amazing offers for DSLR lenses since Nikon and Canon released mirrorless cameras.
Interesting... I was speaking about the German used market, where I've found some K-1s (like my own!) nicely under 1000€ and mostly around 1100-1200€. In comparison, when we were shopping for my girlfriend's replacement camera some months earlier (her 5D1 croaked because apparently I fried it )... a 5D3 was prohibitively expensive at the moment (above 1000€ for decent condition ones), so we settled for a 6D for under 600€.
04-03-2020, 06:38 AM - 1 Like   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I admit that I haven't tried the 5.76 MDot EVFs, but I did try the 3.69 MDot ones and those were unacceptably bad - for me at least. The high refresh rate, high resolution EVFs will inevitably come with extra battery drain however, no? A DSLR will generally always be a better hiking camera, IMO.
The 3.69 milion dots cameras have 60fps refresh rate, most of them. That's why A9 II is better with 120fps refresh rate at same 3.69 milion dots EVF than the others. And that's why the eye strain and headaches are more frecvent on photographers using cameras like A6500, A7 II, A7 III, EOS R/RP, etc. and that's why this problem is still present on forums and internet. Having sensitive eyes, I was one of the ones hating EVFs from early cameras but I practice on them 10-15 minutes and I continued to practice on each new mirrorless I put my hands on until I got comfortable with them. Someone who tries for the first time a 5.76 milion dots EVF with 120 fps refresh rate won't see much difference compared to an OVF, especially if he disable the informations in the EVF so that the EVF will display the same informations as a DSLR. Panasonic is a good example because if you hide the brand from the body it looks like a DSLR and by the time you realize it's a mirrorless you will have taken a few hundreds images.

As for hiking, I don't know what to say... Each time I go out hiking with friends I'm looking for birds/animals while they are shooting landscapes, usually from tripods, with LCDs flipped so that they can have a larger display to look at. I don't see any advantage for either camera here.


QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Interesting... I was speaking about the German used market, where I've found some K-1s (like my own!) nicely under 1000€ and mostly around 1100-1200€. In comparison, when we were shopping for my girlfriend's replacement camera some months earlier (her 5D1 croaked because apparently I fried it )... a 5D3 was prohibitively expensive at the moment (above 1000€ for decent condition ones), so we settled for a 6D for under 600€.
Yes, we all speak from each perspective until someone comes and say as a general rule that Canon or Nikon or Sony is more expensive than Pentax. For new cameras this tend to be true, at least in the countries I visited during the last 5-7 years. For second hand market it seems that is different from country to country. Being so many used cameras from Nikon, Canon and Sony in the market, the prices go down quite a lot these days, at least in Romania.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 04-03-2020 at 06:44 AM.
04-03-2020, 08:12 AM - 1 Like   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
And that's why the eye strain and headaches are more frecvent on photographers using cameras like A6500, A7 II, A7 III, EOS R/RP, etc.
I am not sure eye strain is related to the resolution and frame rate of EVF. My personal experience was the disconfort related to intense brightness in the viewfinder not the same as ambient light levels, like looking at a light bulb and then looking away required some time to see normally again. Other than inconsistent EVF / ambient light level, I think using EVF from OVF is a matter of getting used to the artificial look of the EVF. IMO mirrorless cameras become more attractive than DSLR when CMOS sensors frame rates become fast enough to enable improved imaging capability via image computing like it is done in smart phone. I see only few camera models capable of rapid frame captures, such as Sony A9 and soon Canon EOS R5, other mirrorless models aren't yet that impressive because they still use slow sensors designed for DSLR camera models.
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