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04-03-2020, 08:49 AM - 2 Likes   #256
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I think biz-engineer is right. Maybe some of it has to do with lag and refresh rates, but a lot has to do with just having your eye really close to a screen. Some of us are more sensitive to that than others.

Beyond which, what everyone keeps saying is, "Well, this top end EVF in this really expensive camera is way better than those in the past and if you haven't tried it you can't really say you don't like them." But I don't really want to spend 3000 dollars on a camera (that gets worse battery life) just so I can get a semi-acceptable viewfinder that I still don't really like.

04-03-2020, 09:25 AM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think biz-engineer is right. Maybe some of it has to do with lag and refresh rates, but a lot has to do with just having your eye really close to a screen. Some of us are more sensitive to that than others.

Beyond which, what everyone keeps saying is, "Well, this top end EVF in this really expensive camera is way better than those in the past and if you haven't tried it you can't really say you don't like them." But I don't really want to spend 3000 dollars on a camera (that gets worse battery life) just so I can get a semi-acceptable viewfinder that I still don't really like.
I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I'm just saying that EVFs are improving a lot and if I put a Panasonic S1 in the hands of someone telling him it's a Canon, a Nikon, or a Pentax DSLR, he won't notice in the first place he is using an EVF. As for battery life, I get 150-200 images more from 5D Mark IV than with EOS R. It's not enough to make any kind of difference in real life situations. For landscapes you can add a power bank to mirrorless cameras which these days are as small as a replacement battery for DSLRs and shoot 3-4 times more images (or more, depending on the power of the power bank) than you're going to shoot with a DSLR. And a 10,000mAh power bank is cheaper than an original Lithium-Ion Battery also.
04-03-2020, 09:45 AM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I'm just saying that EVFs are improving a lot
It's improving slowly, but improving doesn't mean it's very good. Mirrorless means investing in a new ILC lens mount, and for me currently the choice of mirrorless isn't obvious yet. Mirrorless lens lineups are not complete, mirrorless cameras reuse the core of previous DSLR cameras (e.g EOS R is a 5DIV without the mirrorbox). In addition, given current economic situations and camera market still shrinking, it's not sure what brand of mirrorless cameras will prevail in the future. Maybe Nikon will die, could be Sony, and how about the long term future of Panasonic? I'd wait a couple of years to see more clearly what's the right choice. Of course, it's possible to buy mirrorless lenses now and wait for new bodies to come later, but that's risky.
04-03-2020, 10:02 AM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It's improving slowly, but improving doesn't mean it's very good.
Look at the difference between Sony A7 (the first model) and Sony A7R IV in terms of EVF. It's a 6 years difference between the 2 and the quality between them is night and day... EVFs improved a lot and became very good.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Mirrorless means investing in a new ILC lens mount, and for me currently the choice of mirrorless isn't obvious yet.
Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just trying to say that people used cameras with not so great EVFs and in their mind all EVFs are bad.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Mirrorless lens lineups are not complete, mirrorless cameras reuse the core of previous DSLR cameras (e.g EOS R is a 5DIV without the mirrorbox).
That was the choice of Nikon and Canon, for the transition. It was a "safe" move to see the interest in mirrorless without investing too much. Given that EOS R5 will be completely new in terms of sensor, processor, etc., I think that both Canon and Nikon will push the pedal even more. The clear indication is also the number of lenses released and soon to be release.


QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
In addition, given current economic situations and camera market still shrinking, it's not sure what brand of mirrorless cameras will prevail in the future. Maybe Nikon will die, could be Sony, and how about the long term future of Panasonic? I'd wait a couple of years to see more clearly what's the right choice. Of course, it's possible to buy mirrorless lenses now and wait for new bodies to come later, but that's risky.
The current situation will have an impact on lots of businesses. I've put on hold pretty much any kind of gear acquisition until my business will get back to normal.

04-03-2020, 11:42 AM - 1 Like   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
mirrorless cameras reuse the core of previous DSLR cameras (e.g EOS R is a 5DIV without the mirrorbox)
ha ha ha, good one.

Its a similar or same sensor,that's all.A couple of generations of processor along the trail.

---------- Post added 04-04-20 at 05:56 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Mirrorless lens lineups are not complete,
M43 has 60+ native lenses to choose from,as well as third party support.Throw in various adapters and theres hunderds of lens choices.

Sony and Fuji have plenty of native mounts and ditto the adapter situation.

CaNik FF m/l have OEM adapters and reports Ive read is the adapted results of EF/FX lenses is better than on the Dslr bodies.Obviously the newer processors are the reason.
04-03-2020, 12:17 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
M43 has 60+ native lenses to choose from
My Nikon Coolpix 2100 from 15 years ago is a mirrorless camera but I have stopped using it long ago, it's out of topic. This thread is obviously not about Ricoh GR, Pentax Optio or equivalent.

---------- Post added 03-04-20 at 21:18 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
CaNik FF m/l have OEM adapters and reports Ive read is the adapted results of EF/FX lenses is better than on the Dslr bodies.
We wonder then why those camera makers bother making new lenses dedicated to mirrorless bodies.
04-03-2020, 12:20 PM - 1 Like   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
My Nikon Coolpix 2100 from 15 years ago is a mirrorless camera but I have stopped using it long ago, it's out of topic. This thread is obviously not about Ricoh GR, Pentax Optio or equivalent.

---------- Post added 03-04-20 at 21:18 ----------


We wonder then why those camera makers bother making new lenses dedicated to mirrorless bodies.

M43 is a perfectly valid ILC system, it's not a point and shoot.

04-03-2020, 12:25 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
We wonder then why those camera makers bother making new lenses dedicated to mirrorless bodies.
They have grey matter devoted to profit.

---------- Post added 04-04-20 at 06:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
My Nikon Coolpix 2100 from 15 years ago is a mirrorless camera but I have stopped using it long ago, it's out of topic. This thread is obviously not about Ricoh GR, Pentax Optio or equivalent.
My Coolpix is 2 years old,so what!When do you ever stick to what a thread is about?
04-03-2020, 12:33 PM - 1 Like   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I still don't understand why you're so certain of that but whatever.
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
By their own public statements Pentax is the DSLR brand and Ricoh is the new technology brand.

Besides - the likelihood Ricoh Corp would allocate the capital to develop a new mount and a complete suite of lenses - well, it is non-zero, but certainly quite unlikely.. And the whole K-Mount adapter thing won’t help. Why wouldn’t I just buy a known product and an adapter for K-mount lenses?
After some thought here are some points RE a Pentax MILC:
  1. Ricoh Imaging would likely need to move away from SocioNext since video is a high-demand feature of MILC
  2. Ricoh Imaging would need to source EVF’s and ground-up develop Firmware to handle the display
  3. Ricoh Imaging would need to develop a new mount to gain the benefits of MILC. K-mount and an AF screwdrive + electronic adapter just isn’t going to work.
  4. Using Q as a precedent, Ricoh Imaging could develop a new mount and source lenses from a Third Party such as Nidec Copal - but would they?
  5. Ricoh Imaging would need to ground-up design the manufacturing process and fund the capital investment for the machines.
Would they do all that under the Pentax brand or build on the GR know-how under the Ricoh brand?
04-03-2020, 12:42 PM - 2 Likes   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
CaNik FF m/l have OEM adapters and reports Ive read is the adapted results of EF/FX lenses is better than on the Dslr bodies.Obviously the newer processors are the reason.
If you ask me, this affirmation has a lot to do with the fact that on mirrorless cameras you don't have front/back focus and I suspect that on DSLRs people didn't noticed the front/back focus when it wasn't far off. And it also has to do with eye af and large af area when shooting wide open.

The benefit of the adapter is that it doesn't affect the image quality or the focus.
04-04-2020, 12:29 AM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
The benefit of the adapter is that it doesn't affect the image quality or the focus.
Why develop new lenses for the new mount?
04-04-2020, 01:11 AM - 1 Like   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Why develop new lenses for the new mount?
Because they can benefit from the shorter flange to improve the lens design, ex: Canon RF 70-200 is smaller and sharper, the RF 24-70 f2 has wider aperture.... and of course new mount lenses will generate more profit for new milc system

---------- Post added 04-04-20 at 09:15 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
[*]Ricoh Imaging would need to develop a new mount to gain the benefits of MILC. K-mount and an AF screwdrive + electronic adapter just isn’t going to work.
if Pentax/Ricoh can make a good adapter for the new system people will be very happy as we all have lots of K-mount lenses and we stay because of the lenses ! Not sure if it will make profit for the new system but certainly buy more time for Pentax to build new lenses !
04-04-2020, 01:34 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
and of course new mount lenses will generate more profit for new milc system
I like that one.
04-04-2020, 02:03 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
Because they can benefit from the shorter flange to improve the lens design, ex: Canon RF 70-200 is smaller and sharper, the RF 24-70 f2 has wider aperture.... and of course new mount lenses will generate more profit for new milc system

---------- Post added 04-04-20 at 09:15 AM ----------


if Pentax/Ricoh can make a good adapter for the new system people will be very happy as we all have lots of K-mount lenses and we stay because of the lenses ! Not sure if it will make profit for the new system but certainly buy more time for Pentax to build new lenses !
The 28-70/2 (not 24, and that's an important distinction) also weighs more than my K-1with 28-105
The RF 70-200/2.8 has an extending design and doesn't look particularly sharper than the EF version.
How close is the rear element of those lenses to the sensor? I've seen several mirrorless lenses where it's as far away as on a DSLR, so it might be a question of throat diameter.
Mirrorless lenses are not exempt from the laws of physics and their associated compromises.
04-04-2020, 02:16 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
Because they can benefit from the shorter flange to improve the lens design, ex: Canon RF 70-200 is smaller and sharper, the RF 24-70 f2 has wider aperture.... and of course new mount lenses will generate more profit for new milc system

---------- Post added 04-04-20 at 09:15 AM ----------


if Pentax/Ricoh can make a good adapter for the new system people will be very happy as we all have lots of K-mount lenses and we stay because of the lenses ! Not sure if it will make profit for the new system but certainly buy more time for Pentax to build new lenses !
There is nothing magical about a shorter registration distance that makes most of your lenses smaller. Or sharper. Canon could make a similarly sized and sharp 70-200 f2.8 for their EOS mount. They won't because they are now pushing their MILC mount, but the only lenses that are going to be smaller are lenses that are close to the registration distance -- that is to say, pretty wide angle lenses in the case of the new MILC mounts.

I suppose the other thing is that with the Z Mount and RP mount the mount is wide enough that they can do f1 primes and f2 zooms, but those aren't exactly small lenses.

I would say that there is a lot more processing going on behind the scenes to make MILC lenses appear sharp while keeping size small. We know that Sony does that, but my guess is that Canon is tweaking things a bit as well.
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