Pentax Mirrorless should use a shortened 645 mount

Joshua A · 11-20-2018, 11:16 PM

Before you shoot me down, here me out. If Pentax does decide to go all in with a mirrorless system, they should consider using the 645 mount with a shortened flange distance. This would allow them the ability to only develop one line of lenses across all sensor formats, and also allow an easy upgrade path between sensor sizes. You could start with a APS-C camera, and eventually work your way up to a FF 645 sensor, all the while utilising only one lens mount.

If they were clever about this, they could still include an internal motor inside of the camera to allow use of they're extensive collection of screw drive lenses (with the appropriate adaptor). And for anyone worrying about size, here's a close to scale 645 mount super imposed on a close to scale K-70, to show that the size wouldn't be excessive.

The point that I am trying to make here, is that Ricoh could use the "mirrorless revolution" as an excuse to tidy up their mount selection, while simultaneously being competitive with modern trends, future proofing themselves by over enginneering their mount, whilst also supporting their current customers in all sensor sizes.

Attached Images

disconnekt · 11-20-2018, 11:31 PM

New mount means new lenses, which is what Pentax has been behind on releasing the last few years for K-mount. They have a long way to go on updating/releasing new modern lenses for what they have now before even thinking about a new mount.

Joshua A · 11-20-2018, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by disconnekt

New mount means new lenses, which is what Pentax has been behind on releasing the last few years for K-mount. They have a long way to go on updating/releasing new modern lenses for what they have now before even thinking about a new mount.

That's the beauty of hypotheticals. Honestly, I think it's inevitable that Pentax will jump on the mirrorless bandwagon, but I really do hope they take DSLR's and the K-mount as far as they can before they decide to hop in.

**clackers** · 11-20-2018, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Joshua A

That's the beauty of hypotheticals. Honestly, I think it's inevitable that Pentax will jump on the mirrorless bandwagon, but I really do hope they take DSLR's and the K-mount as far as they can before they decide to hop in.

I think they will hop in at a point in time that suits them, Joshua.

They did that with both FF and 645 digital.

Their eventual decision won't rely on the opinions of DPR, PetaPixel or even this forum, it will be financially driven and the result of researching different scenarios.

My guess is that MF is not a bad alley to go down. You can charge more for those items anyway, it's just that relatively few are ever bought.

Joshua A · 11-21-2018, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by clackers

I think they will hop in at a point in time that suits them, Joshua.

They did that with both FF and 645 digital.

Their eventual decision won't rely on the opinions of DPR, PetaPixel or even this forum, it will be financially driven and the result of researching different scenarios.

My guess is that MF is not a bad alley to go down. You can charge more for those items anyway, it's just that relatively few are ever bought.

I'd be very concerned for their business if they listened to all the internet feedback, considering most of it seems to be either white noise or pointless whinging. I do agree that MF is probably the best way for smaller vendors to make profits (especially seeing that all of the smaller players aside from Olympus and Panasonic now offer medium format cameras (Fuji with the GF, Leica with the S, along with the Hasselblad and Phase One systems). At the same time, Ricoh has done and excellent job of spreading their R&D budgets across multiple formats, and hope, if profitable, they continue to do so.

joergens.mi · 11-21-2018, 12:12 AM

I don' t think it is a good idea to go mirrorless, there are no advantages besides the promotion speek, when you rally want to take photos

But when, the idea of the TO is good. 645 mount with a smaller flange distance

* Adapter for all 645 and MF lenses

* Adapter for the PK-FF lenses.

The sensor should be a FF one, a bigger one could be introduced later.

The 645 housing has good options to get smaller and to get all in, flash, gps. wifi, electronic shutter, a faster much speedier processor.

**clackers** · 11-21-2018, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Joshua A

I'd be very concerned for their business if they listened to all the internet feedback, considering most of it seems to be either white noise or pointless whinging.

I think they're very aware of this. They trust just a few opinions ... that Japanese art photographer is often the guy who does the beta testing for them, I forget his name.

The Q and the K-01 were both criticized for pricing. The MF guys are used to splashing the cash so I agree with you, it's worth considering them being guinea pigs.

reh321 · 11-21-2018, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by Joshua A

Before you shoot me down, here me out. If Pentax does decide to go all in with a mirrorless system, they should consider using the 645 mount with a shortened flange distance. This would allow them the ability to only develop one line of lenses across all sensor formats, and also allow an easy upgrade path between sensor sizes. You could start with a APS-C camera, and eventually work your way up to a FF 645 sensor, all the while utilising only one lens mount.

If they were clever about this, they could still include an internal motor inside of the camera to allow use of they're extensive collection of screw drive lenses (with the appropriate adaptor). And for anyone worrying about size, here's a close to scale 645 mount super imposed on a close to scale K-70, to show that the size wouldn't be excessive.

The point that I am trying to make here, is that Ricoh could use the "mirrorless revolution" as an excuse to tidy up their mount selection, while simultaneously being competitive with modern trends, future proofing themselves by over enginneering their mount, whilst also supporting their current customers in all sensor sizes.

K-mount is just fine for a MILC. People tend to learn the wrong lesson from the K-01 - it needed an EVF. FF has given them an opportunity to display their ability to develop new lenses.

added: I may have been too direct in the comment above. Your idea is fine - but I have severe doubts about its practicality, about Pentax's ability to actually do something like this. Most likely, MILC is not in Pentax's immediate future - they are more likely to try a hybrid viewfinder first.

photoptimist · 11-21-2018, 08:15 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Joshua A

Before you shoot me down, here me out. If Pentax does decide to go all in with a mirrorless system, they should consider using the 645 mount with a shortened flange distance. This would allow them the ability to only develop one line of lenses across all sensor formats, and also allow an easy upgrade path between sensor sizes. You could start with a APS-C camera, and eventually work your way up to a FF 645 sensor, all the while utilising only one lens mount.

If they were clever about this, they could still include an internal motor inside of the camera to allow use of they're extensive collection of screw drive lenses (with the appropriate adaptor). And for anyone worrying about size, here's a close to scale 645 mount super imposed on a close to scale K-70, to show that the size wouldn't be excessive.

The point that I am trying to make here, is that Ricoh could use the "mirrorless revolution" as an excuse to tidy up their mount selection, while simultaneously being competitive with modern trends, future proofing themselves by over enginneering their mount, whilst also supporting their current customers in all sensor sizes.

The physics of lenses make this an extremely costly and bulky strategy. A decent spec mid-range zoom (e.g., 24-70 f/2.8) would become a massive and extremely expensive lens if it had to be compatible with an MF sensor. Even a lens like the DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 which is a low-cost, compact kit lens for APS-C would become a crazy-big, crazy-expensive ultra-wide angle lens on MF.

You really can't tidy-up mount selection because the engineering (and cost trade-offs) really do push lens design in different directions for different sensor sizes. Sure, you can always mount an MF lens in front of an APS-C sensor, but that MF lens will be much larger, more costly, and have a dimmer maximum aperture than the cheap-small-bright lens designed specifically for APS-C.

joergens.mi · 11-21-2018, 01:23 PM

As I said before, I think the idea is good, using the MF Body in a slim version with reduced flange (?) distance, but an FF-Sensor, therefore you can use all MF und FF lenses without problems. You have only to provide
Extension tube for the existing MF lenses and an adapter for the FF lenses.

DeadJohn · 11-21-2018, 01:37 PM - **1 Like**

If your proposed new mirrorless mount will be used with FF and APS-C sensors, lens physics will be a challenge. I'm not an expert on 645 lenses so I'm relying on Pentax Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

The widest 645 lens ever made was 25mm. That's not wide enough for the smaller sensors.
The fastest 645 lens ever made was f2.8. FF and APS-C users want faster.
No 645 zoom has more than 2x zoom range. That's limiting for the current camera market.

Can new engineering exceed those specs? Maybe. The lenses are likely to be huge and expensive, freezing FF and APS-C customers out of the new mount. Why pay for a 645 image circle, and carry that size and weight, if you only need to illuminate a smaller sensor.

The new mount only makes sense for the 645 world. Existing lenses can be easily adapted to the short flange distance. New 645 lenses can be designed for the new mount over time.

MJKoski · 01-25-2019, 12:46 AM

645 mount would be fine but for a different reason - it would allow massive amount of sensor shift (FF sized sensor) if it moves on rails. Camera movements is the most important advancement any manufacturer could make these days. For they are something which boost creativity instead of the usual obsession for technical quality.

**bobbotron** · 01-25-2019, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by MJKoski

645 mount would be fine but for a different reason - it would allow massive amount of sensor shift (FF sized sensor) if it moves on rails. Camera movements is the most important advancement any manufacturer could make these days. For they are something which boost creativity instead of the usual obsession for technical quality.

I'd love a real digital view camera with just a full frame sensor. There are companies that make bellow adapters for this... use LF lenses that are already out there. A 150mm 4x5 lens w/ tilt shift would be great for a lot of shots.

**LaurenOE** · 01-25-2019, 12:00 PM

If Pentax does not embrace video, there is no reason to go mirrorless. I've been using the Sony system for a couple of years, and if I am doing "just photography" a dSLR is much better for my workflow. The big question will be if the new APS-C camera coming/rumored will do decent video, and from that, we might see mirrorless really take hold with Pentax.

Mirrorless give the potential for global shutter, great digital zoom for 4K workflows, boosted gamma and output to external monitors since there is no mirror that has to be up, electronic ND, etc. etc.. All things that make video work in these new cameras from Canon and Nikon et al, are because of VIDEO, not photography.

And that is the elephant in the room when it comes to Pentax and mirrorless.

**bobbotron** · 01-25-2019, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by LaurenOE

If Pentax does not embrace video, there is no reason to go mirrorless. I've been using the Sony system for a couple of years, and if I am doing "just photography" a dSLR is much better for my workflow. The big question will be if the new APS-C camera coming/rumored will do decent video, and from that, we might see mirrorless really take hold with Pentax.

Mirrorless give the potential for global shutter, great digital zoom for 4K workflows, boosted gamma and output to external monitors since there is no mirror that has to be up, electronic ND, etc. etc.. All things that make video work in these new cameras from Canon and Nikon et al, are because of VIDEO, not photography.

And that is the elephant in the room when it comes to Pentax and mirrorless.

I'm looking at getting a panasonic m4/3 camera at some point for video. You don't need a huge sensor for video, and it'll be a fun small camera. Pentax will have my dollars for some time to come for stills photography.

11-20-2018, 11:16 PM	#1
Joshua A Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 273	Pentax Mirrorless should use a shortened 645 mount Before you shoot me down, here me out. If Pentax does decide to go all in with a mirrorless system, they should consider using the 645 mount with a shortened flange distance. This would allow them the ability to only develop one line of lenses across all sensor formats, and also allow an easy upgrade path between sensor sizes. You could start with a APS-C camera, and eventually work your way up to a FF 645 sensor, all the while utilising only one lens mount. If they were clever about this, they could still include an internal motor inside of the camera to allow use of they're extensive collection of screw drive lenses (with the appropriate adaptor). And for anyone worrying about size, here's a close to scale 645 mount super imposed on a close to scale K-70, to show that the size wouldn't be excessive. The point that I am trying to make here, is that Ricoh could use the "mirrorless revolution" as an excuse to tidy up their mount selection, while simultaneously being competitive with modern trends, future proofing themselves by over enginneering their mount, whilst also supporting their current customers in all sensor sizes. Attached Images

11-21-2018, 06:47 AM	#8
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by Joshua A Before you shoot me down, here me out. If Pentax does decide to go all in with a mirrorless system, they should consider using the 645 mount with a shortened flange distance. This would allow them the ability to only develop one line of lenses across all sensor formats, and also allow an easy upgrade path between sensor sizes. You could start with a APS-C camera, and eventually work your way up to a FF 645 sensor, all the while utilising only one lens mount. If they were clever about this, they could still include an internal motor inside of the camera to allow use of they're extensive collection of screw drive lenses (with the appropriate adaptor). And for anyone worrying about size, here's a close to scale 645 mount super imposed on a close to scale K-70, to show that the size wouldn't be excessive. The point that I am trying to make here, is that Ricoh could use the "mirrorless revolution" as an excuse to tidy up their mount selection, while simultaneously being competitive with modern trends, future proofing themselves by over enginneering their mount, whilst also supporting their current customers in all sensor sizes. K-mount is just fine for a MILC. People tend to learn the wrong lesson from the K-01 - it needed an EVF. FF has given them an opportunity to display their ability to develop new lenses. added: I may have been too direct in the comment above. Your idea is fine - but I have severe doubts about its practicality, about Pentax's ability to actually do something like this. Most likely, MILC is not in Pentax's immediate future - they are more likely to try a hybrid viewfinder first. Last edited by reh321; 11-21-2018 at 07:23 AM.

11-21-2018, 01:37 PM - 1 Like	#11
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,833	If your proposed new mirrorless mount will be used with FF and APS-C sensors, lens physics will be a challenge. I'm not an expert on 645 lenses so I'm relying on Pentax Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database The widest 645 lens ever made was 25mm. That's not wide enough for the smaller sensors. The fastest 645 lens ever made was f2.8. FF and APS-C users want faster. No 645 zoom has more than 2x zoom range. That's limiting for the current camera market. Can new engineering exceed those specs? Maybe. The lenses are likely to be huge and expensive, freezing FF and APS-C customers out of the new mount. Why pay for a 645 image circle, and carry that size and weight, if you only need to illuminate a smaller sensor. The new mount only makes sense for the 645 world. Existing lenses can be easily adapted to the short flange distance. New 645 lenses can be designed for the new mount over time.

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11-20-2018, 11:31 PM	#2
disconnekt Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: SoCal/I.E. Photos: Albums Posts: 1,699	New mount means new lenses, which is what Pentax has been behind on releasing the last few years for K-mount. They have a long way to go on updating/releasing new modern lenses for what they have now before even thinking about a new mount.

11-20-2018, 11:40 PM	#3
Joshua A Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 273 Original Poster	Originally posted by disconnekt New mount means new lenses, which is what Pentax has been behind on releasing the last few years for K-mount. They have a long way to go on updating/releasing new modern lenses for what they have now before even thinking about a new mount. That's the beauty of hypotheticals. Honestly, I think it's inevitable that Pentax will jump on the mirrorless bandwagon, but I really do hope they take DSLR's and the K-mount as far as they can before they decide to hop in.

11-20-2018, 11:55 PM	#4
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Joshua A That's the beauty of hypotheticals. Honestly, I think it's inevitable that Pentax will jump on the mirrorless bandwagon, but I really do hope they take DSLR's and the K-mount as far as they can before they decide to hop in. I think they will hop in at a point in time that suits them, Joshua. They did that with both FF and 645 digital. Their eventual decision won't rely on the opinions of DPR, PetaPixel or even this forum, it will be financially driven and the result of researching different scenarios. My guess is that MF is not a bad alley to go down. You can charge more for those items anyway, it's just that relatively few are ever bought.

11-21-2018, 12:06 AM	#5
Joshua A Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 273 Original Poster	Originally posted by clackers I think they will hop in at a point in time that suits them, Joshua. They did that with both FF and 645 digital. Their eventual decision won't rely on the opinions of DPR, PetaPixel or even this forum, it will be financially driven and the result of researching different scenarios. My guess is that MF is not a bad alley to go down. You can charge more for those items anyway, it's just that relatively few are ever bought. I'd be very concerned for their business if they listened to all the internet feedback, considering most of it seems to be either white noise or pointless whinging. I do agree that MF is probably the best way for smaller vendors to make profits (especially seeing that all of the smaller players aside from Olympus and Panasonic now offer medium format cameras (Fuji with the GF, Leica with the S, along with the Hasselblad and Phase One systems). At the same time, Ricoh has done and excellent job of spreading their R&D budgets across multiple formats, and hope, if profitable, they continue to do so.

11-21-2018, 12:12 AM	#6
joergens.mi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 408	I don' t think it is a good idea to go mirrorless, there are no advantages besides the promotion speek, when you rally want to take photos But when, the idea of the TO is good. 645 mount with a smaller flange distance * Adapter for all 645 and MF lenses * Adapter for the PK-FF lenses. The sensor should be a FF one, a bigger one could be introduced later. The 645 housing has good options to get smaller and to get all in, flash, gps. wifi, electronic shutter, a faster much speedier processor.

11-21-2018, 01:05 AM	#7
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Joshua A I'd be very concerned for their business if they listened to all the internet feedback, considering most of it seems to be either white noise or pointless whinging. I think they're very aware of this. They trust just a few opinions ... that Japanese art photographer is often the guy who does the beta testing for them, I forget his name. The Q and the K-01 were both criticized for pricing. The MF guys are used to splashing the cash so I agree with you, it's worth considering them being guinea pigs.

11-21-2018, 08:15 AM - 1 Like	#9
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,122	Originally posted by Joshua A Before you shoot me down, here me out. If Pentax does decide to go all in with a mirrorless system, they should consider using the 645 mount with a shortened flange distance. This would allow them the ability to only develop one line of lenses across all sensor formats, and also allow an easy upgrade path between sensor sizes. You could start with a APS-C camera, and eventually work your way up to a FF 645 sensor, all the while utilising only one lens mount. If they were clever about this, they could still include an internal motor inside of the camera to allow use of they're extensive collection of screw drive lenses (with the appropriate adaptor). And for anyone worrying about size, here's a close to scale 645 mount super imposed on a close to scale K-70, to show that the size wouldn't be excessive. The point that I am trying to make here, is that Ricoh could use the "mirrorless revolution" as an excuse to tidy up their mount selection, while simultaneously being competitive with modern trends, future proofing themselves by over enginneering their mount, whilst also supporting their current customers in all sensor sizes. The physics of lenses make this an extremely costly and bulky strategy. A decent spec mid-range zoom (e.g., 24-70 f/2.8) would become a massive and extremely expensive lens if it had to be compatible with an MF sensor. Even a lens like the DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 which is a low-cost, compact kit lens for APS-C would become a crazy-big, crazy-expensive ultra-wide angle lens on MF. You really can't tidy-up mount selection because the engineering (and cost trade-offs) really do push lens design in different directions for different sensor sizes. Sure, you can always mount an MF lens in front of an APS-C sensor, but that MF lens will be much larger, more costly, and have a dimmer maximum aperture than the cheap-small-bright lens designed specifically for APS-C.

11-21-2018, 01:23 PM	#10
joergens.mi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 408	As I said before, I think the idea is good, using the MF Body in a slim version with reduced flange (?) distance, but an FF-Sensor, therefore you can use all MF und FF lenses without problems. You have only to provide Extension tube for the existing MF lenses and an adapter for the FF lenses.

01-25-2019, 12:46 AM	#12
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	645 mount would be fine but for a different reason - it would allow massive amount of sensor shift (FF sized sensor) if it moves on rails. Camera movements is the most important advancement any manufacturer could make these days. For they are something which boost creativity instead of the usual obsession for technical quality.

01-25-2019, 11:29 AM	#13
bobbotron Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Ottawa, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,349	Originally posted by MJKoski 645 mount would be fine but for a different reason - it would allow massive amount of sensor shift (FF sized sensor) if it moves on rails. Camera movements is the most important advancement any manufacturer could make these days. For they are something which boost creativity instead of the usual obsession for technical quality. I'd love a real digital view camera with just a full frame sensor. There are companies that make bellow adapters for this... use LF lenses that are already out there. A 150mm 4x5 lens w/ tilt shift would be great for a lot of shots.

01-25-2019, 12:00 PM	#14
LaurenOE Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Back in Florida, but worldwide gigs! Photos: Albums Posts: 3,690	If Pentax does not embrace video, there is no reason to go mirrorless. I've been using the Sony system for a couple of years, and if I am doing "just photography" a dSLR is much better for my workflow. The big question will be if the new APS-C camera coming/rumored will do decent video, and from that, we might see mirrorless really take hold with Pentax. Mirrorless give the potential for global shutter, great digital zoom for 4K workflows, boosted gamma and output to external monitors since there is no mirror that has to be up, electronic ND, etc. etc.. All things that make video work in these new cameras from Canon and Nikon et al, are because of VIDEO, not photography. And that is the elephant in the room when it comes to Pentax and mirrorless.

01-25-2019, 12:22 PM	#15
bobbotron Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Ottawa, ON Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,349	Originally posted by LaurenOE If Pentax does not embrace video, there is no reason to go mirrorless. I've been using the Sony system for a couple of years, and if I am doing "just photography" a dSLR is much better for my workflow. The big question will be if the new APS-C camera coming/rumored will do decent video, and from that, we might see mirrorless really take hold with Pentax. Mirrorless give the potential for global shutter, great digital zoom for 4K workflows, boosted gamma and output to external monitors since there is no mirror that has to be up, electronic ND, etc. etc.. All things that make video work in these new cameras from Canon and Nikon et al, are because of VIDEO, not photography. And that is the elephant in the room when it comes to Pentax and mirrorless. I'm looking at getting a panasonic m4/3 camera at some point for video. You don't need a huge sensor for video, and it'll be a fun small camera. Pentax will have my dollars for some time to come for stills photography.