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09-04-2019, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #16
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I’ve always thought the GR series is a better fit for a compact zoom variant.

Instead of KP hardware with GR mods, I’m thinking GR hardware with KP software.

The large sensor compacts seem about the only compact game going.

A GR-z with a good 15-50 (wider than 24mm equivalent on FF to something usefully more than 50mm) or similar would be a great travel and street camera.

-Eric

09-04-2019, 01:58 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
I’ve always thought the GR series is a better fit for a compact zoom variant.

Instead of KP hardware with GR mods, I’m thinking GR hardware with KP software.

The large sensor compacts seem about the only compact game going.

A GR-z with a good 15-50 (wider than 24mm equivalent on FF to something usefully more than 50mm) or similar would be a great travel and street camera.

-Eric
Fuji just came out with such a kit lens - a 15-45mm - their smallest yet. This is for, and with, their beginner camera models - X-t100, X-A5, X-T30, etc. Still love my Pentax 18-50mm on my K30, but would love something wider way more, especially on a smaller size camera...
09-04-2019, 01:59 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Instead of KP hardware with GR mods, I’m thinking GR hardware with KP software.
What do you mean by that? The GR III's firmware is by no means "inferior" to the KP's - on the contrary, it works on newer hardware and being Linux-based, it might be more future proof.
09-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #19
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Adding new models to the GR line with different focal lengths would probably be smart er then starting a new mirrorless mount. It has been done before by Sigma, and that wasn't to succesfull. But I guess making a GR with equivalent 35mm, 50mm or a zoom could be done and could be succesfull.

09-04-2019, 02:02 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxRT Quote
How hard would it be...
to develop a MLC based on the GRIII frame bundled with a select number of the very best re-purposed DA limited primes?
FWIW, the GRiii is already a MLC. What it is not is a MILC. There are a few key differences, all of which would affect a simple refit to accept any current model compact APS-C lens. Hint: Consider the opposite case...bringing the GR 18.3/2.8 to K-mount as a DA Limited.

What any reworked DA Limited would require that the GRiii lacks:
  1. _____
  2. _____
  3. _____
  4. _____
    .
    .
    .
What the current GRiii brings to the table to address any of the points above:
  1. _____
  2. _____
  3. _____
  4. _____
    .
    .
    .
It is time for fill-in-the-blanks...no help from me. An estimate of time and effort for each point on the first list might be helpful. People with actual product development and/or engineering expertise are encouraged to participate. Hint: No, this is not easily done in a firmware update.


Steve
09-04-2019, 02:02 PM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The thing is, IMO Pentax/Ricoh Imaging can much more easily compete on the DSLR market - advantage their loyal user base - than on the much more crowded, much more competitive MILC market. Particularly as Canon and Nikon's efforts are diverted... elsewhere.
The question is one of the future. Fortunately, it's not me who must find an answer.
You are probably right. The question is, what does competing in DSLR market mean? Pentax is not competing on AF or video (as is well known) or third party lens support, so really, Pentax is competing in a still photo DSLR segment.
09-04-2019, 03:14 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
What do you mean by that? The GR III's firmware is by no means "inferior" to the KP's - on the contrary, it works on newer hardware and being Linux-based, it might be more future proof.
That’s fine, then. The key point was that the GR physical architecture would be a better platform for a mirrorless zoom compact than the KP.

I’m a fan of how the Pentax cameras work, but I would be happy with a full featured experience in a compact camera regardless of whether it was Linux-based or a more traditional Pentax firmware framework...

-Eric

09-06-2019, 07:23 AM - 1 Like   #23
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I am not an engineer so I am probably underestimating the amount of time and money required to accomplish my underlying suggestion. But it seems to me that IF there is a path forward for Pentax it will be based on 1) quality and 2) desirable niche not otherwise dominated by a bigger player. So I would look at the Leica business model. Leica's are elegant, ungodly expensive, limited but high quality prime lens selection and focused on the full frame market. Why couldn't Ricoh use the GR as the basis for a Leica type APSC? Retool just the DA limited's without lens reformulation (this may not be possible) for a proprietary mirrorless mount. This would provide the new frame with five small, highly regarded prime lenses that could have some Leica type cache. Voightlander did something similar to this with the Bessa R several years back that platform got a lot of positive buzz.
09-06-2019, 08:49 AM   #24
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I am not an engineer, but it seems like Ricoh/Pentax put a great deal of effort and engineering into the K-01 and Q cameras that could now be utilized, updated or modified to produce a great aps-c ,mirrorless cameras and produce a nice lens adapter that works well with various Pentax lenses, but then rebuild their primes and several, vital zoom lenses for a new ML mount. Reduce size and weight and then sell many new cameras and lenses. Fuji has shown us it can be done, but has too many cameras, not enough with IS, some lenses that have IS,- but many not, and many that are not WR and/or do not have an aperture scale. That said, sometimes I wonder how many designers and engineers are still fully employed by Ricoh/Pentax to undertake new camera and lens development...although they did manage to successfully come out with the GR3 recently, so a small zoom version seems viable.
09-06-2019, 09:00 AM - 3 Likes   #25
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The Pentax brand doesn't have the same weight as Leica, and likely it cannot survive at whatever the Bessa R sales volume were. Making a slight buzz on the Internet amounts to nothing.

There is no shortcut. The existence of the GR III and the DA Limiteds won't make the task significantly easier, and - quite important - won't free up resources required to launch a new MILC system. I do not get this assuming MILC must be a priority goal - is it truly the best way to serve their loyal user base?
What I want to see from them is renewing the K-mount line, cameras and lenses, until it's all modern and reasonably complete. If they wish to pursue MILCs after that, good luck to them.

Last edited by Kunzite; 09-06-2019 at 09:27 AM. Reason: priority goal
10-02-2019, 12:08 AM   #26
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Not sure if Ricoh Image makes the right decision not to make MILC cameras with EVF.

In a DSLR, there is a main mirror, a mirror actuator, a second back mirror for image projection on AF collimator, AF lenses, AF sensor. On the top side there is AE sensor, AE sensor lens. In addition... Pentax still put an AF motor in camera, and an aperture level with aperture lever actuator, and all this must be calibrated!. In a mirrorless camera there is almost nothing of all those parts used in DSLR, AE and AF is done with the image sensor, and the only mechanical part if the shutter block and IBIS (on Canon RP not even IBIS). So yeah, the OVF is more comfortable for the user, but DSLR is more complex to make than a mirrorless camera.

The simplicity of a mirrorless such as Canon RP is amazing: no mirror, no AE sensor, no AF sensor, no aperture level, no AF motor, no IBIS, and it sells at a higher price than a Pentax K1 DSLR. Canon RP is basically a printed circuit board with a CMOS sensor on it, and two LCD displays (one LCD for the back of the camera and one micro LCD for the EVF). In a MILC camera everything is done in software, no much mechanical / optical calibrations to be done, can be made in China with a simple test target and auto-test mode in firmware.

Ricoh could easily strip down a K1 body, K mount, put a 47Mp sensor in it, replace the prism by an EVF and sell it $3000.
10-02-2019, 12:29 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Not sure if Ricoh Image makes the right decision not to make MILC cameras with EVF.
...
Ricoh could easily strip down a K1 body, K mount, put a 47Mp sensor in it, replace the prism by an EVF and sell it $3000.
Et tu, Brute?

Regardless of the relative simplicity of mirrorless bodies compared to DSLR, the development cost in human and financial resources for an entirely new platform and mount - which would necessarily need to include an adapter with screw-drive capability for K-mount backwards-compatibility - would be huge... much higher, I'd argue, than that required for continued evolution of the existing K-mount DSLR platform.

I like mirrorless cameras and have no problem using EVFs, but unless Ricoh is prepared to expand the size of its Pentax camera and lens development operation, and allocate the associated funds required - which seems unlikely in the fading market - then I believe it should continue to focus on DSLRs. Any diltuion or reduction of the already-limited resources for DSLR and K-mount lens development would be disastrous, I think.
10-02-2019, 01:13 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Regardless of the relative simplicity of mirrorless bodies compared to DSLR, the development cost in human and financial resources for an entirely new platform and mount
Mirrorless doesn't need a new mount. New mounts were created by Sony, Canon, Nikon & Co. so that to offer a temporary adaption of legacy glass via adapter while opening up business for selling new lenses for the new mount.
A mirrorless camera with a K mount is a stripped down version of a Pentax DSLR, it doesn't cost more to develop when using the K mount, it costs less because the software is straight-foward as there is only one sensor to read: the image sensor. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with hardware and software components removed. For a design standpoint Mirrorless is a better design, because it is simplified. There are two downsides for camera users: banding from AF array on CMOS sensor, and EVF disconfort. But for the camera maker mirrorless means better profit margins, and a bit of a marketing rip-off for customers but that's another story.
10-02-2019, 01:42 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Mirrorless doesn't need a new mount. New mounts were created by Sony, Canon, Nikon & Co. so that to offer a temporary adaption of legacy glass via adapter while opening up business for selling new lenses for the new mount.
A mirrorless camera with a K mount is a stripped down version of a Pentax DSLR, it doesn't cost more to develop when using the K mount, it costs less because the software is straight-foward as there is only one sensor to read: the image sensor. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with hardware and software components removed. For a design standpoint Mirrorless is a better design, because it is simplified. There are two downsides for camera users: banding from AF array on CMOS sensor, and EVF disconfort. But for the camera maker mirrorless means better profit margins, and a bit of a marketing rip-off for customers but that's another story.
Oh, I get what a mirrorless camera is, and why it's easier and cheaper to manufacture. I just don't think there's a significant potential market for one that has a big, empty mirror box in front of the sensor and (according to your previous post) no mechanical AF drive or aperture control, so incompatible with most existing K-mount lenses I don't see that as particularly attractive when compared to Sony, Nikon and Canon with their more compact, short registration distance bodies and legacy lens adapters. I'd rather Ricoh invested in development of a hybrid viewfinder and offered something new and compelling. Of course, that would require even more R&D, and more complex and costly manufacturing, which isn't good for Ricoh... but neither, I'd venture to suggest, is a larger-than-necessary mirrorless camera with a redundant mirror box and minimal legacy lens support. The press, reviewers, other forums and users of other brands would have a field day, I fear...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-02-2019 at 02:39 AM.
10-02-2019, 03:23 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I just don't think there's a significant potential market for one that has a big, empty mirror box in front of the sensor and (according to your previous post) no mechanical AF drive or aperture control, so incompatible with most existing K-mount lenses
Yes I agree, my Pentax mirrorless solution wouldn't compete well with other brands. Could be done as a service on current DSLR camera models, remove the mirror, disable mirror motor/actuator, and lock the firmware in LV mode :-). The problem for Ricoh would be to make a mirrorless system that compete well with other brands, would certainly require a big chunk of R&D.
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