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**THoog** · 10-29-2019, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Breakfastographer

A mirrorless camera offers nothing a DSLR can't. The compactness argument has repeatedly been shown to be a myth - what you lose in the body, you gain in the lens (and guess what, you have more lenses than bodies!), and you're often left without an appreciable grip to hold on to. EVF is just LiveView caged into a viewfinder. Canon's recent 90D has made that very clear. It seems that Canon is the other player hanging on to its wisdom - the next 1DX will have continuous shooting rates that are competitive with current mirrorless bodies, even in mirror configuration, never mind LiveView (where there is no practical difference between a DSLR and a mirrorless camera).

Pentax' DSLRs already rival and often exceed mirrorless cameras in compactness. Pentax has no reason to get in on this hype.

---------- Post added 10-29-19 at 09:43 AM ----------

I have not been able to find anything that says that the latest generation of Nikon's Expeed platform, driving the Z7, isn't also a Milbeaut chip. In fact, I found one person specifically claiming it is a Milbeaut.

Is the Z7 considered underpowered, as you suggest, or does it have unacceptable screen lag?

Nikon has a history of using microcontrollers in addition to the image processor, which allowed them to offload some of the processing. So far as I know, the "image accelerator" is the only example of Pentax using a second processor. They certainly could pursue this, but it would affect the space, power, and heat dissipation budget. It might also require them to write code for functions that were previously bought "baked in" to the Milbeaut.

Steve Beswick · 11-22-2019, 01:45 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Breakfastographer

A mirrorless camera offers nothing a DSLR can't. The compactness argument has repeatedly been shown to be a myth - what you lose in the body, you gain in the lens ...

...Pentax' DSLRs already rival and often exceed mirrorless cameras in compactness. ...

The first statement is largely untrue, and the last one is completely untrue.

Yes, I know Mattias Burling has made the "smaller camera larger lens" argument before, but he has also proven multiple times that isn't necessarily true.

I have had 5 different Sony E-mount cameras, and all of them have been drastically smaller and lighter than any DSLR I have ever had. I currently own both a NEX-3 and a Rebel SL1. My NEX-3 with its 16mm lens is narrower, shorter, lighter (and I'm pretty sure thinner) than the SL1 without a lens. The Sony 16-50 kit lens is 1/3 the size of any modern DSLR kit zoom, with the exception of the Pentax 18-50, which it is 2/3 the size of. I briefly had a Fuji XT-10, thinking it would be the ultimate digital Pentax ME, but it wasn't, because it was drastically smaller than the ME. I put my Konica 40mm on the front with an adapter, and it absolutely dwarfed the camera!

While I have no personal full frame digital experience, I'm pretty sure that the Sony A7 line is drastically smaller than any full frame DSLR.

When Olympus went from 4/3 to micro 4/3 almost everything went half size or smaller. both the cameras and the lenses.

If you know of some Pentax DSLR that is significantly smaller and lighter than a Rebel SL1, then please tell us about it, because many of us would like to buy one.

house · 11-22-2019, 04:24 AM

There has been a lot of talk about the advantages of short registration distances for lens design. There has also been arguments the other way. Supposedly wide angles benefit the most.

Any one know of proof/serious analysis for either side?

motorhead9999 · 12-09-2019, 10:29 AM - **1 Like**

As a heavy Sony user, the size issue to me is moot. Yes, your body is smaller, but if you're looking for fast Trinity lenses, any gains in size are offset by the fact that you mostly have the same size dslr lenses.

Personally, if Pentax would just add an EVF, i would be happy. They can keep the exact same size and shape of the k1. The size/weight of it doesn't bother me, but the evf to me would be a perfect addition.

Keep in mind, my use of the k1 is fairly limited. I only use it for landscape situations. Until Pentax has an autofocus/fps on the level of Sony, there's no point to me in using a Pentax for moving situations. But that's just me. I'm also not one for video, so I don't even pay attention to those specs.

bertwert · 12-09-2019, 10:42 AM - **5 Likes**

Originally posted by CapitanXeon

What does it really take to create a mirrorless camera?

A DSLR and a pair of pliers.

Steve Beswick · 12-09-2019, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by motorhead9999

As a heavy Sony user, the size issue to me is moot. Yes, your body is smaller, but if you're looking for fast Trinity lenses, any gains in size are offset by the fact that you mostly have the same size dslr lenses.

Personally, if Pentax would just add an EVF, i would be happy. They can keep the exact same size and shape of the k1. The size/weight of it doesn't bother me, but the evf to me would be a perfect addition.

Keep in mind, my use of the k1 is fairly limited. I only use it for landscape situations. Until Pentax has an autofocus/fps on the level of Sony, there's no point to me in using a Pentax for moving situations. But that's just me. I'm also not one for video, so I don't even pay attention to those specs.

Trinity lenses? as in a trio of f2.8 zooms? Yeah, there probably isn't much of a size advantage in that specific lens category. For the rest of us, the potential lens size savings are substantial.

CapitanXeon · 12-16-2019, 11:36 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by bertwert

A DSLR and a pair of pliers.

Oh my god

motorhead9999 · 12-17-2019, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by Steve Beswick

Trinity lenses? as in a trio of f2.8 zooms? Yeah, there probably isn't much of a size advantage in that specific lens category. For the rest of us, the potential lens size savings are substantial.

I mean...yes and no. The place where mirrorless lenses get really nice sizewise (at least in the full frame world) is on non-fast primes. Look at some of the Voigtlander primes they make for Sony. Those are really nice in terms of packing stuff. But honestly, even with those smallish lenses, the space savings in your backpack aren't as huge as you might suspect. Now, if you go the micro 4/3 route, that's a complete different story.

reh321 · 12-17-2019, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by Adam

A mirrorless camera doesn't differ much from a DSLR, though ideally you'll want a nice EVF and fast on-sensor PDAF for the shooting experience to be comparable (things Pentax currently lacks).

Without compactness, though, mirrorless doesn't bring much more to the table. That's why Pentax wouldn't benefit from rebooting a mirrorless K-mount camera, and that's why the company has consciously decided against it, instead catering to those who prefer shooting with traditional DSLRs (and experimenting with innovative ideas through cameras like the GR or Theta).

To have a clear game plan while letting others battle it out until the dust settles is a wise move, IMO.

The people who sell size are mostly DSLR users. The MILC users I am aware of sell the EVF. Users here tend not to like EVF, which is probably the reason Pentax doesn't seem to pursue it right now, although there is that hybrid viewfinder that shows up in a discussion every so often.

reh321 · 12-17-2019, 06:52 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Breakfastographer

Is the Z7 considered underpowered, as you suggest, or does it have unacceptable screen lag?

I may be one of the few users here who has actually handled a Z7 {I tried it when Nikon's introductory show stopped in a camera store near me}. I had an employee walk by a pillar in the store specifically so I could judge lag. I saw neither lag nor flicker {from the store's LED lighting} in the the EVF as I tried it.

Steve Beswick · 12-17-2019, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by motorhead9999

I mean...yes and no. The place where mirrorless lenses get really nice sizewise (at least in the full frame world) is on non-fast primes. Look at some of the Voigtlander primes they make for Sony. Those are really nice in terms of packing stuff. But honestly, even with those smallish lenses, the space savings in your backpack aren't as huge as you might suspect. Now, if you go the micro 4/3 route, that's a complete different story.

What do you consider fast?

https://www.adorama.com/mk652e.html?

https://www.adorama.com/sart3512e.html?

https://www.adorama.com/mk2518e.html?

https://www.adorama.com/sart5514eb.html?

I'd also like to point out that there isn't a 35mm f1.2 lens available for the K amount at any size, weight, or price. Yes, these are the "cheapie" lenses, but at least they actually exist for mirrorless cameras. Some of these have no DLSR equivalent.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE DSLRs. I have a Canon SL1, 10D and D30, a Nikon D70, A Pentax K10d and a (an?) *ist D, an Olympus E-1, and I'm sure one or two more I can't remember right now. In most situations my SL1 is my go-to camera. I'm hoping Santa brings me an original 5D! I also have a Sony NEX-3, a Panasonic G2, and have had a half dozen other Sony mirrorless models and a couple Fuji X cameras along the way. There are many on this forum (not you) that always comment on mirrorless cameras, whom I'm pretty sure have never really used one. Many of those that have only ever used them with adapted K mount lenses. Of course the size advantage is partly lost doing that! I do say partly however - any full frame DSLR absolutely dwarfs a Sony A7, A9, et cetera.

reh321 · 12-17-2019, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Steve Beswick

I'd also like to point out that there isn't a 35mm f1.2 lens available for the K amount at any size, weight, or price. Yes, these are the "cheapie" lenses, but at least they actually exist for mirrorless cameras.

Do you mean an f/2 lens? My first Pentax body was kitted with Pentax-M 50 mm f/2 lens, so I figure there must be many of those around.

Wasp · 12-17-2019, 01:16 PM

The thing is, Ricoh already have a capable mirrorless camera in the GR III. Just put a K mount on it and take our money. Or is it not that simple?

Steve Beswick · 12-17-2019, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by reh321

Do you mean an f/2 lens? My first Pentax body was kitted with Pentax-M 50 mm f/2 lens, so I figure there must be many of those around.

No, I mean f1.2. check the link.

https://www.adorama.com/sart3512e.html?

reh321 · 12-17-2019, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Steve Beswick

No, I mean f1.2. check the link.

https://www.adorama.com/sart3512e.html?

You provided four links in that post, including
https://www.adorama.com/mk652e.html?
.... then you used the phrase "cheapie lens".

In the DSLR, even the f/1.4 lenses have been quite expensive, including the relatively new DFA* 50mm f/1.4, so I was confused.
As someone who has always valued deep DOF, I could not see why anyone would want a f/1.2 lens.

12-17-2019, 06:52 AM - 1 Like	#25
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,186	Originally posted by Breakfastographer Is the Z7 considered underpowered, as you suggest, or does it have unacceptable screen lag? I may be one of the few users here who has actually handled a Z7 {I tried it when Nikon's introductory show stopped in a camera store near me}. I had an employee walk by a pillar in the store specifically so I could judge lag. I saw neither lag nor flicker {from the store's LED lighting} in the the EVF as I tried it. Last edited by reh321; 12-17-2019 at 09:01 AM.

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10-29-2019, 12:57 PM	#16
THoog Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,685	Originally posted by Breakfastographer A mirrorless camera offers nothing a DSLR can't. The compactness argument has repeatedly been shown to be a myth - what you lose in the body, you gain in the lens (and guess what, you have more lenses than bodies!), and you're often left without an appreciable grip to hold on to. EVF is just LiveView caged into a viewfinder. Canon's recent 90D has made that very clear. It seems that Canon is the other player hanging on to its wisdom - the next 1DX will have continuous shooting rates that are competitive with current mirrorless bodies, even in mirror configuration, never mind LiveView (where there is no practical difference between a DSLR and a mirrorless camera). Pentax' DSLRs already rival and often exceed mirrorless cameras in compactness. Pentax has no reason to get in on this hype. ---------- Post added 10-29-19 at 09:43 AM ---------- I have not been able to find anything that says that the latest generation of Nikon's Expeed platform, driving the Z7, isn't also a Milbeaut chip. In fact, I found one person specifically claiming it is a Milbeaut. Is the Z7 considered underpowered, as you suggest, or does it have unacceptable screen lag? Nikon has a history of using microcontrollers in addition to the image processor, which allowed them to offload some of the processing. So far as I know, the "image accelerator" is the only example of Pentax using a second processor. They certainly could pursue this, but it would affect the space, power, and heat dissipation budget. It might also require them to write code for functions that were previously bought "baked in" to the Milbeaut.

11-22-2019, 01:45 AM - 2 Likes	#17
Steve Beswick Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ontario, California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,736	Originally posted by Breakfastographer A mirrorless camera offers nothing a DSLR can't. The compactness argument has repeatedly been shown to be a myth - what you lose in the body, you gain in the lens ... ...Pentax' DSLRs already rival and often exceed mirrorless cameras in compactness. ... The first statement is largely untrue, and the last one is completely untrue. Yes, I know Mattias Burling has made the "smaller camera larger lens" argument before, but he has also proven multiple times that isn't necessarily true. I have had 5 different Sony E-mount cameras, and all of them have been drastically smaller and lighter than any DSLR I have ever had. I currently own both a NEX-3 and a Rebel SL1. My NEX-3 with its 16mm lens is narrower, shorter, lighter (and I'm pretty sure thinner) than the SL1 without a lens. The Sony 16-50 kit lens is 1/3 the size of any modern DSLR kit zoom, with the exception of the Pentax 18-50, which it is 2/3 the size of. I briefly had a Fuji XT-10, thinking it would be the ultimate digital Pentax ME, but it wasn't, because it was drastically smaller than the ME. I put my Konica 40mm on the front with an adapter, and it absolutely dwarfed the camera! While I have no personal full frame digital experience, I'm pretty sure that the Sony A7 line is drastically smaller than any full frame DSLR. When Olympus went from 4/3 to micro 4/3 almost everything went half size or smaller. both the cameras and the lenses. If you know of some Pentax DSLR that is significantly smaller and lighter than a Rebel SL1, then please tell us about it, because many of us would like to buy one.

11-22-2019, 04:24 AM	#18
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	There has been a lot of talk about the advantages of short registration distances for lens design. There has also been arguments the other way. Supposedly wide angles benefit the most. Any one know of proof/serious analysis for either side?

12-09-2019, 10:29 AM - 1 Like	#19
motorhead9999 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Photos: Albums Posts: 114	As a heavy Sony user, the size issue to me is moot. Yes, your body is smaller, but if you're looking for fast Trinity lenses, any gains in size are offset by the fact that you mostly have the same size dslr lenses. Personally, if Pentax would just add an EVF, i would be happy. They can keep the exact same size and shape of the k1. The size/weight of it doesn't bother me, but the evf to me would be a perfect addition. Keep in mind, my use of the k1 is fairly limited. I only use it for landscape situations. Until Pentax has an autofocus/fps on the level of Sony, there's no point to me in using a Pentax for moving situations. But that's just me. I'm also not one for video, so I don't even pay attention to those specs.

12-09-2019, 10:42 AM - 5 Likes	#20
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,172	Originally posted by CapitanXeon What does it really take to create a mirrorless camera? A DSLR and a pair of pliers.

12-09-2019, 01:28 PM	#21
Steve Beswick Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ontario, California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,736	Originally posted by motorhead9999 As a heavy Sony user, the size issue to me is moot. Yes, your body is smaller, but if you're looking for fast Trinity lenses, any gains in size are offset by the fact that you mostly have the same size dslr lenses. Personally, if Pentax would just add an EVF, i would be happy. They can keep the exact same size and shape of the k1. The size/weight of it doesn't bother me, but the evf to me would be a perfect addition. Keep in mind, my use of the k1 is fairly limited. I only use it for landscape situations. Until Pentax has an autofocus/fps on the level of Sony, there's no point to me in using a Pentax for moving situations. But that's just me. I'm also not one for video, so I don't even pay attention to those specs. Trinity lenses? as in a trio of f2.8 zooms? Yeah, there probably isn't much of a size advantage in that specific lens category. For the rest of us, the potential lens size savings are substantial.

12-16-2019, 11:36 AM - 1 Like	#22
CapitanXeon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Terrassa Posts: 220 Original Poster	Originally posted by bertwert A DSLR and a pair of pliers. Oh my god

12-17-2019, 04:44 AM	#23
motorhead9999 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Photos: Albums Posts: 114	Originally posted by Steve Beswick Trinity lenses? as in a trio of f2.8 zooms? Yeah, there probably isn't much of a size advantage in that specific lens category. For the rest of us, the potential lens size savings are substantial. I mean...yes and no. The place where mirrorless lenses get really nice sizewise (at least in the full frame world) is on non-fast primes. Look at some of the Voigtlander primes they make for Sony. Those are really nice in terms of packing stuff. But honestly, even with those smallish lenses, the space savings in your backpack aren't as huge as you might suspect. Now, if you go the micro 4/3 route, that's a complete different story.

12-17-2019, 06:46 AM	#24
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,186	Originally posted by Adam A mirrorless camera doesn't differ much from a DSLR, though ideally you'll want a nice EVF and fast on-sensor PDAF for the shooting experience to be comparable (things Pentax currently lacks). Without compactness, though, mirrorless doesn't bring much more to the table. That's why Pentax wouldn't benefit from rebooting a mirrorless K-mount camera, and that's why the company has consciously decided against it, instead catering to those who prefer shooting with traditional DSLRs (and experimenting with innovative ideas through cameras like the GR or Theta). To have a clear game plan while letting others battle it out until the dust settles is a wise move, IMO. The people who sell size are mostly DSLR users. The MILC users I am aware of sell the EVF. Users here tend not to like EVF, which is probably the reason Pentax doesn't seem to pursue it right now, although there is that hybrid viewfinder that shows up in a discussion every so often.

12-17-2019, 10:44 AM	#26
Steve Beswick Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ontario, California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,736	Originally posted by motorhead9999 I mean...yes and no. The place where mirrorless lenses get really nice sizewise (at least in the full frame world) is on non-fast primes. Look at some of the Voigtlander primes they make for Sony. Those are really nice in terms of packing stuff. But honestly, even with those smallish lenses, the space savings in your backpack aren't as huge as you might suspect. Now, if you go the micro 4/3 route, that's a complete different story. What do you consider fast? https://www.adorama.com/mk652e.html? https://www.adorama.com/sart3512e.html? https://www.adorama.com/mk2518e.html? https://www.adorama.com/sart5514eb.html? I'd also like to point out that there isn't a 35mm f1.2 lens available for the K amount at any size, weight, or price. Yes, these are the "cheapie" lenses, but at least they actually exist for mirrorless cameras. Some of these have no DLSR equivalent. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE DSLRs. I have a Canon SL1, 10D and D30, a Nikon D70, A Pentax K10d and a (an?) *ist D, an Olympus E-1, and I'm sure one or two more I can't remember right now. In most situations my SL1 is my go-to camera. I'm hoping Santa brings me an original 5D! I also have a Sony NEX-3, a Panasonic G2, and have had a half dozen other Sony mirrorless models and a couple Fuji X cameras along the way. There are many on this forum (not you) that always comment on mirrorless cameras, whom I'm pretty sure have never really used one. Many of those that have only ever used them with adapted K mount lenses. Of course the size advantage is partly lost doing that! I do say partly however - any full frame DSLR absolutely dwarfs a Sony A7, A9, et cetera.

12-17-2019, 12:41 PM	#27
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,186	Originally posted by Steve Beswick I'd also like to point out that there isn't a 35mm f1.2 lens available for the K amount at any size, weight, or price. Yes, these are the "cheapie" lenses, but at least they actually exist for mirrorless cameras. Do you mean an f/2 lens? My first Pentax body was kitted with Pentax-M 50 mm f/2 lens, so I figure there must be many of those around.

12-17-2019, 01:16 PM	#28
Wasp Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Pretoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,663	The thing is, Ricoh already have a capable mirrorless camera in the GR III. Just put a K mount on it and take our money. Or is it not that simple?

12-17-2019, 01:29 PM	#29
Steve Beswick Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ontario, California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,736	Originally posted by reh321 Do you mean an f/2 lens? My first Pentax body was kitted with Pentax-M 50 mm f/2 lens, so I figure there must be many of those around. No, I mean f1.2. check the link. https://www.adorama.com/sart3512e.html?

12-17-2019, 01:38 PM	#30
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,186	Originally posted by Steve Beswick No, I mean f1.2. check the link. https://www.adorama.com/sart3512e.html? You provided four links in that post, including https://www.adorama.com/mk652e.html? .... then you used the phrase "cheapie lens". In the DSLR, even the f/1.4 lenses have been quite expensive, including the relatively new DFA* 50mm f/1.4, so I was confused. As someone who has always valued deep DOF, I could not see why anyone would want a f/1.2 lens.